p51 vs p47

[plan_D]

The P-47 was the first aircraft to down a -262.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

was the -262 on it's take off/landing approach??

[plan_D]

No, no it was not.

[redcoat]

The P-51 was the best US fighter.
The P-47 was a very good fighter, but it was an even better ground attack aircraft.
The P-38 (AKA The Icebox)was a failure as a fighter in NW Europe, but it was a reasonable ground attack aircraft.

But the best Allied fighter to see service in Europe was the Spitfire mk XIV,
No if, buts or maybe's \/

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'd agree with that.................

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by redcoat

The P-51 was the best US fighter.
The P-47 was a very good fighter, but it was an even better ground attack aircraft.
The P-38 (AKA The Icebox)was a failure as a fighter in NW Europe, but it was a reasonable ground attack aircraft.

But the best Allied fighter to see service in Europe was the Spitfire mk XIV,
No if, buts or maybe's \/

The P-38 was not a failure! As stated before it maintained in the ETO:

4/1 ratio in combat
Historians award 2,500+ kills
2 f/g accomplished a 4/5% bomber loss rate not bettered by 7 P-51 & 2 P-47 (long rangs escort) f/gs

They did this while

Developing the P-38
Learning Tactics and gaining experiance The P-51/P47s benefitted from
Bad gas and ground support infrastructure Also benifitting following planes
Close escort
Experianced German resistance (requiring bringing 'Wild Bore' f/s to daylite operations.
Air superiority over Germany was established by march 44 when the P-51s were just reaching parity with the P-38s

Furthermore there is a famous story about a Spit XIV vs P-38 dogfight where they sized eachother up then the P-38 got on the Spit's tail and stayed there up to and including a low level, low angle split s that the P-38 followed through but was dangerously low so the fight was called off at that point before someone got hurt - the point having already been made.

Your comments are uninformed, Try the following web pages

P-38online http://p-38online.com
Planes and Pilots of WWII This one has very good articles.
p-38(C.C.Jordon) http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

There are also several books out there that clear up a lot of the misconceptions about the P-38.


The P-38 had problems in the ETO, but when needed - in spite of the Problems - it allowed the bombers to continue deep raids for at least 6 months at a critical time, and gave much better than it took!

In the MTO and the Pacific The P-38 was the best. Historians credit it with 5,730+ in the PTO and 608 in the MTO ( included in the 2,500). Considering they did this while doing Close escort, ground attack and more experianced adversaries And less airsraft 10,000 P-38s (8,200+ kills total for the war) to 15,000+ p-51s (5,932 kills for the war) and 16,000 P-47s (7,000+ kills for the war) is even more remarkable.

Even if you take the, incorrect, 1,771 ETO + the 5,730+ PTO = 7501+ more than the P-51 anyway!

The P-51B/C/D/K has only three things it can do better than a P-38L
1. Cost $53,000 vs 115,000
2. Visability no booms to look around
3. 56% of the P-51s fuel is internal the P-38 has 41% internal though the P-38 flew longer operational missions.

The P-38L did everything else better, period.

The P-51 was the best single engined (that's why most comparisons include that qualification!) fighter. It was compettetive wint anything else it had to fly against and had the range to take it to the enemy and still go home.

[Erich]

hmmmmmmmmm no I would not agree that the March 1944 date would be true. Possibly during Normandie and afterward.

The birth and life of the 354th fg overshadowed any other fighter group in the ETO with the pilots flying the P-51 which they favoured over the P-47 later in the fall of 44.

Wilde Sau fighters from JG 300 were not brought over to fly day time missions until June of 44 and later JG 301 flying out of Austria and Hungary until being pulled back in the fall of 44 to the Reich defence.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Erich

hmmmmmmmmm no I would not agree that the March 1944 date would be true. Possibly during Normandie and afterward.

The birth and life of the 354th fg overshadowed any other fighter group in the ETO with the pilots flying the P-51 which they favoured over the P-47 later in the fall of 44.

Wilde Sau fighters from JG 300 were not brought over to fly day time missions until June of 44 and later JG 301 flying out of Austria and Hungary until being pulled back in the fall of 44 to the Reich defence.

Erich, I was being careful not to exagerate but I think that is close.

i will try to find the exact source but one of mine mentioned Galland bringing either 1 or 2 F/Gs into the daylite raidsin November '43 to bolster the me-110s in the bomber attack role as the fighters were being countered by the P-38 escorts.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Erich

hmmmmmmmmm no I would not agree that the March 1944 date would be true. Possibly during Normandie and afterward.

The birth and life of the 354th fg overshadowed any other fighter group in the ETO with the pilots flying the P-51 which they favoured over the P-47 later in the fall of 44.

Wilde Sau fighters from JG 300 were not brought over to fly day time missions until June of 44 and later JG 301 flying out of Austria and Hungary until being pulled back in the fall of 44 to the Reich defence.

The P-38s started earnest escort in late October '43 with 2 F/Gs the first P-51Bs were just starting to arrive. The first P-51 F/G went operational in late December '43 reaching parity with the P-38s in mid to late Spring '44.
The P-38s began ground attack (in earnest) in the ETO about the same time (mid-late spring '44) to prepare for D-Day. They were phased out of the ETO escort roll by late September '44.

[Erich]

I think what you meant to say is that twin enigne night fighters were called to help stem the tide of heavy day light bombers.

In the fall of 43 through spring of 44, Bf 110G's with heavy radar as well as some staffels equipped with the twin Br 21cm rocket launchers............

as friend and ace Peter Spoden has told me, (he flew one of these heavy beasts), if any Allied escorts were in the area, we knew we would be dog meat............

E ~

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Erich

I think what you meant to say is that twin enigne night fighters were called to help stem the tide of heavy day light bombers.

In the fall of 43 through spring of 44, Bf 110G's with heavy radar as well as some staffels equipped with the twin Br 21cm rocket launchers............

as friend and ace Peter Spoden has told me, (he flew one of these heavy beasts), if any Allied escorts were in the area, we knew we would be dog meat............

E ~

That could be, my source did not specify groups or aircraft just that the P-38 escorts caused a rethink and using previously night fighter F/Gs transfered to daylite operations.

[Adolf Galland]

i think that the 2 aircraft have different their role, so its performance are different:
Speed: Depending he model
Range: P-51(obviously)
Performance above 15,000 ft: P-51
Performance below 15,000 ft: P-47
Ground Attack: P-47
Manuverablilty: P-51(takes it 2 do a full loop 360 degrees at 15000 ft:15 seconds, P-47: 19 seconds)
firepower: P-47
Pay-load: P-47
Easy-to-control: P-51
More nosy: P-47
Wasting more fuel Per hour: P-47
Better Dogfighter: P-51
Faster Climb Rate: P-51
gun easier 2 jam: P-51
ummm...i think i wrote 2 much here... anyway in my opinion i think the P-51 is gonta gun down a P-47 first...

[Adolf Galland]

and also if i could choose, i would choose the P-38

[evangilder]

The thing you have to remember is that shooting down a P-47 is almost impossible. You have to fill it so full of lead, it's too heavy to fly! From my last presentation:
June 23, 1943
Early in the morning forty-eight Thunderbolts took off from the advanced base at Manston. Having previously been criticized for going off on his own, this morning Johnson resolved to stay in formation. The three squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group were all up: the 61st (Johnson's), 62nd, and 63rd. Before the mission, Johnson felt the cold fear that he always felt, and which he was able to channel into higher alertness. They flew up, over the Channel, into France, and soon spotted sixteen Fw-190s. Before Johnson could communicate or coordinate with his flight, he was hit. 20mm cannon shells ripped through his plane, smashing the canopy, punching holes in the plane, and inspiring in Johnson an overwhelming urge to bail out. More explosions smashed the plane, and Johnson's frantic "Mayday!" calls drew no response. Fire began to envelope the cockpit.

The Thunderbolt spun crazily out of his control and the twisted and jammed canopy frame resisted his repeated, superhuman, full-body efforts to open it. As he struggled vainly with the canopy, the engine fire miraculously went out, but he could hardly see, as oil spewed back from the battered engine. He tried to squeeze out through the broken glass of the canopy, but the opening was just too small for both him and his chute. Trapped inside the P-47, he next decided to try to crash-land and evade. He turned the plane south, toward Spain - the recommended evasion route. After struggling with hypoxia and hallucinations, his thoughts came back into focus and he realized that the aircraft was still flying fairly well. He headed back for England, counting on his high altitude to help him make a long, partially-powered glide back home.

The instrument panel was shattered. The wind constantly blew more oil and hydraulic fluid into his cut up face and eyes. He had neglected to wear his goggles that morning, and any attempt to rub his eyes burned worse than ever. He and his plane were horribly shot up, but incredibly he was still alive. He made for the Channel, desperate to escape the heavily defended enemy territory.

Swiveling constantly, he froze in horror as he spotted a plane approaching him, an Fw-190, beautifully painted in blue with a yellow cowling. Johnson was totally helpless, and just had to wait for the German to get him in his sights and open up. The German closed in, taking his time with the crippled American fighter. Johnson hunched down behind his armor-plated seat, to await the inevitable. The German opened up, spraying the plane with 30-caliber machine gun fire, not missing, just pouring lead into the battered Thunderbolt. Johnson kicked his rudder left and right, slowing his plane to a crawl, and fired back as the German sped out in front of him.

The Focke-Wulf easily avoided the gunfire from the half-blinded Johnson, and circled back, this time pulling level with him. The pilot examined the shattered Thunderbolt all over, looking it up and down, and shook his head in mystification. He banked, pulled up behind Johnson again, and opened up with another burst. Somehow the rugged Republic-built aircraft stayed in the air. The German pulled alongside again, as they approached the southern coast of the Channel. Still flying, Johnson realized how fortunate it was that the German found him after his heavy 20mm cannons were empty.

As they went out over the Channel, the German got behind and opened up again, but the P-47 kept flying. Then he pulled up alongside, rocked his wings in salute, and flew off, before they reached the English coast. Johnson had survived the incredible, point-blank machine gun fire, but still had to land the plane. He contacted Mayday Control by radio, who instructed him to climb if he can. The battered plane climbed, and after more communication, headed for his base at Manston. Landing was touch and go, as he had no idea if the landing gear would work. The wheels dropped down and locked and he landed safely.

Johnson relates:
"There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside."


That was none other than Robert Johnson, in his earlier days. Who was the pilot that failed to shoot him down? Egon Mayer! Egon Mayer was later killed in a crash after being shot down later, by a P-47!

[plan_D]

wmaxt, it was a Spitfire Mk. IX not a XIV. The P-38 got 1.1:1 kill ratio, not 4:1 in the ETO.