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06-07-2006, 04:17 AM
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#16 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,829
Country:  | I agree though with the way you said it. The Experten and the experienced pilots (which there were still plenty of in 1944, not as many as 1942 or whatever, but there were still plenty) were something to be reckoned with but by the end of 1944 the bulk of the Luftwaffe was made up of inexperienced pilots that were basically thrown into the cockpit, hell in 1945 the Hitler Jugend was even flying planes. I have heard they were flying He-162s as well.
Now that I think about the Maintenance as well, late 1944 and 1945 spare parts were just not available so many aircraft were canabalized and even flying on aircraft that were not quite ready for combat.
So now that I think about it more, I can agree with what you are saying somewhat.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | 
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06-07-2006, 07:47 AM
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#17 | | Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 35
Country:  | Hi all, first post here  Well I would put this situation like this; P51 would most certanly be able to put off BF109K away from it's bombers, but in any prolonged fight, especially if they go low and slow I would give a slight advantage to the 109K. P51 was not exactly known as the most stable fighter at low speed, so I think 109 with it's leading edge slats and excellent low speed manouverbility would really be in advantage, if P51 pilot would slow down that is. Ofcourse this is in case of "sterile" 1vs1 situation which I guess couldn't happen in RL. All in all I would say a draw. | |
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06-07-2006, 08:25 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,057
Country:  | In reality, given the situation of the war, the Bf-109K would rise up with three or four wingmen to meet twenty to fifty P-51Ds. While any Bf-109K was chasing a P-51D to bring him down, there would be four on his own tail.
The Bf-109K is going to win a one on one dogfight, however.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. | |
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06-07-2006, 10:51 AM
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#19 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,829
Country: | Exactly. The P-51D was really no better than any other of the top fighters out there at the time. It was a great escort fighter with its range but in the end the only thing that made it stand out was the fact that it was in such huge numbers and could overpower the enemy in those numbers, just as plan_D just said.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-11-2006, 10:12 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,848
Country:  | what happenned anyways when a model is phased out for a later one... like where did all the Bf109Es go when the Gs went into service? they were sent to the scrap metal?
__________________  "The German Luftwaffe always fought without any reserves. This is also the reason why we have pilots with extremely high numbers of victories."
- General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland"  | |
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06-11-2006, 10:39 PM
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#21 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 13,190
Country:  | Training schools...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
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06-12-2006, 01:17 AM
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#22 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,506
Country: | Interesting how the poll has turned out a bit uncertain as to which one is tops.
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06-12-2006, 02:03 AM
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#23 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20
| Me 109 K4 better then P51 D? I am doubt about that.
As you now, Me 109 had a engine with 2 stage compresor and P 51 D had a 4 stage compresor. Me 109 could flight at 10.000 meter altitude maxim, altough P51 D came over 11.500 meter - it has supercharger. That mean match engine power (speed cumulated) | |
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06-12-2006, 05:21 AM
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#24 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,829
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by loomaluftwaffe what happenned anyways when a model is phased out for a later one... like where did all the Bf109Es go when the Gs went into service? they were sent to the scrap metal? | As Les said training schools, and some were still used in front line service. For instance II/SG 1 still used Bf-109E-7/B in Stalingrad in 1943.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-12-2006, 05:24 AM
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#25 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,829
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by bogy Me 109 K4 better then P51 D? I am doubt about that.
As you now, Me 109 had a engine with 2 stage compresor and P 51 D had a 4 stage compresor. Me 109 could flight at 10.000 meter altitude maxim, altough P51 D came over 11.500 meter - it has supercharger. That mean match engine power (speed cumulated) | And the K-4 used MW-50 and reach 727kmh without a supercharger.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-12-2006, 08:18 AM
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#26 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3
Country: | the p51 was rated as the best fighter plane of all time!!! | |
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06-12-2006, 08:36 AM
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#27 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,232
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by ricardox the p51 was rated as the best fighter plane of all time!!! | You need to read some of the threads in information provided in this thread. many other aircraft OUTPERFORMED the P-51 including many German aircraft. Turn off Discovery Wings for a few hours and read some of the threads before shooting off your mouth....
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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06-12-2006, 08:59 AM
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#28 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ You need to read some of the threads in information provided in this thread. many other aircraft OUTPERFORMED the P-51 including many German aircraft. Turn off Discovery Wings for a few hours and read some of the threads before shooting off your mouth.... |
Thanks Joe,
I have this gag reflex that bugs me when people always just say " P-51 was best fighter in WW2". Its a pet peeve, it drives me crazy. Most times (99%) they have no idea what they are talking about, like you say they have just watched too many TV shows. P-51 was a great plane for the role that it preformed (aka long range escort fighter). Thats what he should of said.
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06-12-2006, 09:24 AM
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#29 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,232
Country: | Yep!!!
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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06-12-2006, 09:36 AM
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#30 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 9,264
Country: | sorry to say this ........... but ............ polls like this are absoloutely worthless. Putting in the hands of test pilots at wars end will give you the tech graphs you so desire but not under actual combat experiences which during late war for the Luftw. is hard enough as they were only interested in surviving and not noting just how nimble the P-51D or K or ? was . It is all up to pilot skill who will come out on top | |
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