P51D/K vs Me109K-14

[schwarzpanzer]

Just in theory then.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You can try, but it still will be nothing more than a "What if situation" of Should Have, Could Have, Didn't happen.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

The Ta 152H takes em all in equal combat, 7 outta 10...

I am not sure how you can justify this statement. After some research I have come up with the following data.

Weight
P-51H 7040(e) to 9500 (loaded) Ta152H 8640(e) to 10470 (loaded)
Power
P-51H (Take off) 1380 (mil) 2218 (max) Ta152 (take off) 1750 (mil) 2050 (max)
P-51H (33K) 1540 (max) Ta152 (33K) (1320)
Wing Area
P-51H 235sqft Ta152 251sqft
Wing Loading
P-51H (loaded weight,lb/sqft) 40.4, Ta152 (loaded weight) 41.7
Max speeds
Sealevel P-51H 424 mph, Ta152H 350mph
30K ft P-51H 485 mph, Ta152H 465
41K ft P-51H 444 mph (interpolated) Ta152H 472
Overall Max P-51H 487 mph Ta152 472
Service Ceiling (ft)
P-51H 41600, Ta152H 48550
Rate of Climb (S/L, ft/min)
P-51H (loaded weight) 5000, Ta152h 3445
Max Power to Weight (hp/wt)
P-51H (loaded, S/L) .23, Ta152 (loaded, S/L) .2
P-51H (loaded, 33K) .16, Ta152 (loaded, 33K) .12
Time to Climb (min)
No good data on Ta152H
P-51H (0-15K) 3
P-51H (0-25K) 5
P-51H (0-30K) 8

If this data is correct, and it seems to be consistant across the data base, then it appears that the P-51H has a significant advantage below 30K, a/s, power to weight, wing loading and total weight. The lower the altitude, the greater the advantage for the P-51H with a 74 mph speed over the Ta152 at sealevel.

Going on the data, I would say that it was awash from 30K to 35K, with the P-51 still holding a speed advantage. Above 35K, the Ta152 has all the aces.

Going strickly on data is slippery slope, however, these two planes never met and so we don't have much to compare except data.

Had the three planes that were meant to meet over Germany at 30-35K, the B-29, P-51H, and the Ta152H, it would have been quite a battle.

There seems to be good data on the P-51H including North American charts, but not much on the Ta152H.

Unless this data is wrong, I don't see the Ta152H dominating the skies at a 7 out of 10 clip, certainly not below 35,000 ft.

Let me know if my info is incorrect (like nobody would!)

[Erich]

max speed of the Ta 152H was well beyond 472. Since only one well known JG 301 ace has noted his speed in the Tank it has been taken as the top speed....quite incorrect in the books and data sheets. there IS much data on the Ta 152H and it will be in book form soon, possibly with Monogram and it will be a huge monster of a book at that.
Maybe the comparison should be the the TA 152H to present WW 2 US and RAF fighter types but this originally was the K-14 ? /K-4 against the P-51D/K

these comparitive threads drive me nutz

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Erich

max speed of the Ta 152H was well beyond 472. Since only one well known JG 301 ace has noted his speed in the Tank it has been taken as the top speed....quite incorrect in the books and data sheets. there IS much data on the Ta 152H and it will be in book form soon, possibly with Monogram and it will be a huge monster of a book at that.
Maybe the comparison should be the the TA 152H to present WW 2 US and RAF fighter types but this originally was the K-14 ? /K-4 against the P-51D/K

these comparitive threads drive me nutz

Data comparisons are alway hazardous in that there are other factors that affect the effectiveness of an aircraft. Even reported data cannot necessarily be trusted. Is manufacturing data an analysis or test? Was the test properly calibrated? Is the data reported by a pilot? Was it indicated or true airspeed (not likely). What was the pressure altitude? Was data corrected by temperature or pressure altitude? What was the load? All of these are factors in absolute accuracy? In general, pilot reports, unless in a special instrumented aircraft, is unreliable, due to the above factors. Even manufacters data can be unreliable. Unfortunately, it is often all we have.

Comparisons such as this is frustrating but is quite useful in an educational manner. We all tend to learn something new about great airplanes that flew long ago.

[Erich]

very true but in the case of the Ta 152H-0 it was tested by more than 15 JG 301 pilots and given a robust going over at many altitudes. I am going to say no more as I do not have the large volume in front of me to gaze over, it though should equip us with a more true ? form although not highlighted for it's combat operations that it flew at.........which was something the visionaries had not seen

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Erich

very true but in the case of the Ta 152H-0 it was tested by more than 15 JG 301 pilots and given a robust going over at many altitudes. I am going to say no more as I do not have the large volume in front of me to gaze over, it though should equip us with a more true ? form although not highlighted for it's combat operations that it flew at.........which was something the visionaries had not seen

Sounds like it will be a good solid data base. It will be interesting to get the results.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The only problem I see with those figures up there is that I have seen different numbers for both aircraft. Most of the books that I own even give the Ta-152H's rate of climb at around 5000 ft per minute. The numbers you have up there are actually for the Ta-152C I believe and most websites throw them all into one and use those figures.

Tha Ta-152H outperformed the Ta-152C by quite a bit, and as Erich says the Ta-152H could exceed speeds of over 472mph.

[Soren]

The climb rate of the Ta-152H-1 was 20m/s (3,937 ft/min) at 1,730HP@Start u. Notleistung, at 2,050HP@Sonder Notleistung it would be quite abit higher - Most likely around the 5,000 ft/min Adler mentioned.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Exactly and it would be climbing up at notleistung to reach the enemy bombers.

My guess as well is that P-51H is actually around 3500 to 4000 ft/m rather than 5000ft but like the Ta-152H could use its emergency power or max power setting to obtain 5000ft/m.

[Erich]

Soren nice siggie.great touch with Wills pic in it.

the Ta 152C was actually used by the GeschwaderStab and possibly II. gruppe together when they were on the same base but I am going to have to check more sources as this is just off the top of my head. primarily the C's were stripped from factory to be used for the existing H's but several were complete and in flying order

[Soren]

Thank you Erich, I had Wurger make it for me, and as can be seen he's obviously very good at it I'm glad he remembered my request to put Willi in there as-well

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Exactly and it would be climbing up at notleistung to reach the enemy bombers.

My guess as well is that P-51H is actually around 3500 to 4000 ft/m rather than 5000ft but like the Ta-152H could use its emergency power or max power setting to obtain 5000ft/m.

The data was taken from an apparent North American Aviation engineering drawing I found on the internet. It looks very authentic describing the configuration (clean, no wing racks) and War Emergency Power (90" MP, water injection, 3000 rpm). It actually shows max climb at a GW of 8000lbs at 5K feet of almost 6500 f/m. The same drawing show the time to climb numbers and maximum speed. What I don't know is if the data is test data or from caluculations.

I would not be surprised if the data points are incorrect for the Ta152 as there has only been glimpse of its perfomance data. It does seem consistent accross the spectrum, which could just mean there was one source.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree. Its hard to tell about the Ta-152. Do you still have the drawings of the P-51 that you are talking about. I would love to see them, would be very interesting.

[Soren]

A detailed comparison is on the way....