Reggiana 2005 Vs. Bf 109F - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

CPWN · 09-26-2007, 08:05 AM

I read some old discussion about Serie 5 fighters and have different opinion on the conclusion.

First,I don't believe Re.2005 can fly out the same top speed at three different altitudes,even P-51 can't make it.In Italian Wiki,it seems to say Re.2005 can reach to 678km/hr at 2,000m but only 628km/hr at 7,000m. Although some articles say Re.2005 has the fastest speed at high altitude,but German test report mention about only the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics.

Other resources report after Re.2005 could dive to 988km/hr in test flight,structure problems still remain in later air combat.These caused some pilots need to abandon plane in combat flight.When designer got idea,Armistice day was coming.Reggiane industry had no chance to fix whole bugs on Re.2005.

MC.205's top speed appeared at 7,500m but the plane almost lost control and easy to stall.Its performance dropped considerably over 8000 meters.

Maybe Fw190A can beat all Italian fighters at low altitude,but German needs to against Alliance bombers over 30,000feets,Fw190A also dropped performance considerably at high altitude.

Only G.55 got excellent performance at every altitude and heavy fire power.So,I think German choice is right and reasonable. G.55 is the best Axis fighter in 1943 and good enough to replace both Bf109G & Fw190A.

Kurfürst · 10-05-2007, 11:39 AM

There`s a related content put up recently to my site :

Kurfürst - Bericht über Jagdflugzeug-Vergleichsfliegen bei der ital. E-Stelle Guidonia.

Bericht über Jagdflugzeug-Vergleichsfliegen
bei der ital. E-Stelle G u i d o n i a .

In der Zeit vom 18.2.1943 bis 21.2.1943 wurde in Guidonia
ein Vergleichsfliegen deutscher und italienischer Flugzeuge durch-
geführt. Von Jagdflugzeugen waren zum Vergleich mit Bf 109 G 4 und
Fw 190 A 5 folgende Flugzeuge vorhanden : Macchi 205 V, Macchi 205 N,
Reggiane 2005 und Fiat G 55.

Jank · 10-06-2007, 10:57 AM

Can someone who reads German summarize the salient points?

userlyAfterse · 10-07-2007, 07:52 AM

My mother dropped me on my head to many times.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-07-2007, 07:58 AM

Good bye

Soundbreaker Welch? · 10-07-2007, 12:27 PM

LOL! His mother????

Glider · 10-07-2007, 02:07 PM

Obviously she didn't drop him hard enough

Soundbreaker Welch? · 10-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Now, that's not nice!

Jank · 10-09-2007, 09:28 AM

Is anyone able to summarize the findings of the flight tests?

delcyros · 10-09-2007, 01:51 PM

RE-2005:
the flying abilities are (just or better nearly) statisfying. The plane curves well, rolling comparable to BF 109G4 with a lighter stick. Start & landing easy and free from problems altough visibility is mediocre. Cannot be used as fighter bomber due to details of cooler installment.

trial comparison flight between Fw-190A5 and Re-2005:
During climb both planes do show equal performances (it is said that the RE-2005 did not utilize it´s max. power). In level flight at 6000m the Fw-190 appears to be faster, both planes do curve equally well.

Summerized on RE-2005. The G55 comes out favourably but still doesn´t show superiority. It seems that there is some notable softness as a weapon platform common for italian planes.

Parmigiano · 10-10-2007, 05:11 AM

Here an english summary of the German evaluation test from the G55 site.

G55 - Aircraft History

Jank · 10-10-2007, 03:12 PM

I once read about a captured G.55 that the Brits evaluated. They were quite shocked at the high level of performance.

HoHun · 10-10-2007, 03:35 PM

Hi Parmigiano,

>Here an english summary of the German evaluation test from the G55 site.

Thanks!

I'd add that English readers should be aware that it is not a summary of exactly the report reproduced on Kurfürst's site.

Here is a translation of some comments from the German report:

"General

The exterior form and the overall impression of the aircraft displayed there was good. The achieved performance is partially owed to the very small radiators. This applies especially to the Macchi 205 V and the Reggiane 2005."

Note: The Macchie 205 N overheated in the climb, so it seems obvious that "small" is used in the sense of "insufficiently dimensioned" here.

On the Fiat G 55:

"As a summary one has to state:

The Fiat G 55 is equal to the German fighters in climb and altitude performance, superior in armament and range, inferior in speed (currently 25 km/h), though it has to be considered that the Italian DB 605 yields 100 HP less.

Since according to the statement of the designer the DB 603 can be mounted without major changes, the aircraft greatly gains in attractiveness - considering the current performance -, as it with the DB 603 would be superior in any regard to all current fighters."

Note: The report is ambiguous about the supposed climb rate superiority at high altitude which would be a result of the Fiat's lower wingloading, noting a poorer power loading compared to the Bf 109 G-4 as counter-acting factor.

With regard to the characteristics of the Fiat G 55:

"The flying characteristics are not as good as those of the Bf 109 G-4 and the Fw 190 A-5."

The German interest in the G 55 was clearly motivated by the hope to be able to install the DB 603 with a 30 mm MK 108 engine cannon in addition to the two 12.7 mm machine guns in the cowl and to the two 20 mm wing cannon (that apparently were projected at the time the report was written).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Glider · 10-10-2007, 04:18 PM

This makes sence as the standard G55 had 3 x 20 plus the 2 x HMG and the centre 20mm had a huge amount of ammunition (up to 380 rds) so weight and space wouldn't have been a problem

Civettone · 10-10-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPWN

First,I don't believe Re.2005 can fly out the same top speed at three different altitudes,even P-51 can't make it.In Italian Wiki,it seems to say Re.2005 can reach to 678km/hr at 2,000m

You're right in your criticism.
I don't recall the details as I got an article on that on my other computer, which is out of order, rotten thing!, but in it it becomes apparent that the 678 km/h was not a standard speed and one which was attained once with a modified Re.2005 but ever since it has been taken as a standard speed in most literary. The Re.2005 had a maximum speed of around 640 km/h and at a medium just like with all the other DB 605A powered engines.

Kurfürst, I am happy to see that report on your website. Great stuff, thanks!
Kris

View Poll Results: Reggiana Re. 2005 vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109F
Reggiana Re. 2005	22	30.99%
Messerschmitt Bf 109F	45	63.38%
Equally matched	4	5.63%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

09-26-2007, 08:05 AM	#16
CPWN Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 25	I read some old discussion about Serie 5 fighters and have different opinion on the conclusion. First,I don't believe Re.2005 can fly out the same top speed at three different altitudes,even P-51 can't make it.In Italian Wiki,it seems to say Re.2005 can reach to 678km/hr at 2,000m but only 628km/hr at 7,000m. Although some articles say Re.2005 has the fastest speed at high altitude,but German test report mention about only the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. Other resources report after Re.2005 could dive to 988km/hr in test flight,structure problems still remain in later air combat.These caused some pilots need to abandon plane in combat flight.When designer got idea,Armistice day was coming.Reggiane industry had no chance to fix whole bugs on Re.2005. MC.205's top speed appeared at 7,500m but the plane almost lost control and easy to stall.Its performance dropped considerably over 8000 meters. Maybe Fw190A can beat all Italian fighters at low altitude,but German needs to against Alliance bombers over 30,000feets,Fw190A also dropped performance considerably at high altitude. Only G.55 got excellent performance at every altitude and heavy fire power.So,I think German choice is right and reasonable. G.55 is the best Axis fighter in 1943 and good enough to replace both Bf109G & Fw190A. __________________ Last edited by CPWN; 09-26-2007 at 08:22 AM.

10-05-2007, 11:39 AM	#17
Kurfürst Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Aquincum, Pannonia Prima Posts: 905	There`s a related content put up recently to my site : Kurfürst - Bericht über Jagdflugzeug-Vergleichsfliegen bei der ital. E-Stelle Guidonia. Bericht über Jagdflugzeug-Vergleichsfliegen bei der ital. E-Stelle G u i d o n i a . In der Zeit vom 18.2.1943 bis 21.2.1943 wurde in Guidonia ein Vergleichsfliegen deutscher und italienischer Flugzeuge durch- geführt. Von Jagdflugzeugen waren zum Vergleich mit Bf 109 G 4 und Fw 190 A 5 folgende Flugzeuge vorhanden : Macchi 205 V, Macchi 205 N, Reggiane 2005 und Fiat G 55. __________________ __________________________________________________ http://kurfurst.org http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/index.php

10-06-2007, 10:57 AM	#18
Jank Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 679	Can someone who reads German summarize the salient points? __________________ August 12, 1944 - In an armor cover mission at the Falaise track, Charlie Rife, 368th FG, 395th FS, takes 37mm fllak rounds to both wings. His wingman, Richard Kik, takes a 20mm round to the engine that knocks out two cylinders. Both make it back.

10-07-2007, 07:52 AM	#19
userlyAfterse Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1	Êóäà ïîåõàòü íà îòäûõ? Ïîäñêàæèòå, ïëèç My mother dropped me on my head to many times. Last edited by DerAdlerIstGelandet; 10-07-2007 at 08:00 AM.

10-07-2007, 07:58 AM	#20
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,086	Good bye __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

10-07-2007, 12:27 PM	#21
Soundbreaker Welch? Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 1,896	LOL! His mother???? __________________ "His motor's conked out!" "What's the differance, they're all Nazis!" "Luke, shut up!" "Fear the hook!" "Oh.....I wanna fly." "You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?" "What you doing? Oh Nooooo!"

10-07-2007, 02:07 PM	#22
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,918	Obviously she didn't drop him hard enough

10-07-2007, 10:57 PM	#23
Soundbreaker Welch? Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 1,896	Now, that's not nice! __________________ "His motor's conked out!" "What's the differance, they're all Nazis!" "Luke, shut up!" "Fear the hook!" "Oh.....I wanna fly." "You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?" "What you doing? Oh Nooooo!"

10-09-2007, 09:28 AM	#24
Jank Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 679	Is anyone able to summarize the findings of the flight tests? __________________ August 12, 1944 - In an armor cover mission at the Falaise track, Charlie Rife, 368th FG, 395th FS, takes 37mm fllak rounds to both wings. His wingman, Richard Kik, takes a 20mm round to the engine that knocks out two cylinders. Both make it back.

10-09-2007, 01:51 PM	#25
delcyros Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg) Posts: 1,753	RE-2005: the flying abilities are (just or better nearly) statisfying. The plane curves well, rolling comparable to BF 109G4 with a lighter stick. Start & landing easy and free from problems altough visibility is mediocre. Cannot be used as fighter bomber due to details of cooler installment. trial comparison flight between Fw-190A5 and Re-2005: During climb both planes do show equal performances (it is said that the RE-2005 did not utilize it´s max. power). In level flight at 6000m the Fw-190 appears to be faster, both planes do curve equally well. Summerized on RE-2005. The G55 comes out favourably but still doesn´t show superiority. It seems that there is some notable softness as a weapon platform common for italian planes. __________________ ---delcyros---

10-10-2007, 05:11 AM	#26
Parmigiano Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy Posts: 682	Here an english summary of the German evaluation test from the G55 site. G55 - Aircraft History __________________ "God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche too" - God, Aug 25, 1900 He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams

10-10-2007, 03:12 PM	#27
Jank Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 679	I once read about a captured G.55 that the Brits evaluated. They were quite shocked at the high level of performance. __________________ August 12, 1944 - In an armor cover mission at the Falaise track, Charlie Rife, 368th FG, 395th FS, takes 37mm fllak rounds to both wings. His wingman, Richard Kik, takes a 20mm round to the engine that knocks out two cylinders. Both make it back.

10-10-2007, 03:35 PM	#28
HoHun Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,765	Hi Parmigiano, >Here an english summary of the German evaluation test from the G55 site. Thanks! I'd add that English readers should be aware that it is not a summary of exactly the report reproduced on Kurfürst's site. Here is a translation of some comments from the German report: "General The exterior form and the overall impression of the aircraft displayed there was good. The achieved performance is partially owed to the very small radiators. This applies especially to the Macchi 205 V and the Reggiane 2005." Note: The Macchie 205 N overheated in the climb, so it seems obvious that "small" is used in the sense of "insufficiently dimensioned" here. On the Fiat G 55: "As a summary one has to state: The Fiat G 55 is equal to the German fighters in climb and altitude performance, superior in armament and range, inferior in speed (currently 25 km/h), though it has to be considered that the Italian DB 605 yields 100 HP less. Since according to the statement of the designer the DB 603 can be mounted without major changes, the aircraft greatly gains in attractiveness - considering the current performance -, as it with the DB 603 would be superior in any regard to all current fighters." Note: The report is ambiguous about the supposed climb rate superiority at high altitude which would be a result of the Fiat's lower wingloading, noting a poorer power loading compared to the Bf 109 G-4 as counter-acting factor. With regard to the characteristics of the Fiat G 55: "The flying characteristics are not as good as those of the Bf 109 G-4 and the Fw 190 A-5." The German interest in the G 55 was clearly motivated by the hope to be able to install the DB 603 with a 30 mm MK 108 engine cannon in addition to the two 12.7 mm machine guns in the cowl and to the two 20 mm wing cannon (that apparently were projected at the time the report was written). Regards, Henning (HoHun)

10-10-2007, 04:18 PM	#29
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,918	This makes sence as the standard G55 had 3 x 20 plus the 2 x HMG and the centre 20mm had a huge amount of ammunition (up to 380 rds) so weight and space wouldn't have been a problem

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