Which side would you fly for?.......

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by drgondog

- but the German records show a lot of experienced pilots and squadrons being transferred from Russain front to Germany in late 1943 and I don't believe that bunch was heavily populated by the 150 hour replacement pilots.

I agree with u in 1943, as well as the loss of many aces and experten

I would pinpoint that the bulk of the experienced pilots went down between Jan and May 1944... and that the replacement pilots with lower time were staring in that timeframe and accelerating in April because so many went down in the first four months of 44.

most of the people that comment on overwhelming numbers of fighters in the 8th AF in 1944 overlook the point that most of that Fighter force had to turn back near Bremen, Hannover, Frankfurt line while the 51s picked up the Penetration and Target Support from there all the way to Munich or Berlin or Posnan - or thereabouts.

Very true statement....

The LW wasn't stupid - they withdrew much of their force (except JG2 and JG26) from France and the Lowlands and put JG1, 3, 5, 11, 27, 53, 54, 300, 301, 302 into Germany in the first months of 44... and those had Fw190s that could Fight -

One of the reasons was because they were decimated to the point of being inneffective.... One stafflen putting up 4 planes aint gonna work...

I think as I look your post over again that our prime difference in point of view is the relative quality of the Luftwaffe Fighter arm in Luft3 and Luft Reich in January 1944. So I will repeat what I believe (about German relative strength) and what I know -

I would agree with u on the strength of the LW during January 44, as well as the number of experten and KC winners in the air...

Tell me that this is an overwhelming force or had more than enough combat experience and log time to offset German forces but help me understand your point of view as to why I am wrong?

I dont think ur wrong at all... I was just pointing out some things that seemed to have gotten looked over.... I was also thinking more in terms of the latter part of 1944, not the beginnings... U made several valid points that are the same as my views...

As far as Im aware, not every bomber had a fighter covering him at all times... (that was a joke) The Mustangos couldnt be everywhere at one time, and usually, and I say usually loosely, the LW didnt attack a group of bombers with 40 190s in the stern attack...

Blah blah blah, we agree with each other more than we disagree so Im happy....

I won't goof around on this subject with people that I have already debated with - if my math and logic ain't right why embarass myself with the ones that have better facts than me?

U have more facts than I do Bill, and ur opinion is more educated than mine... I cant say that about many here so.....

It occured to me that a lot of people on this forum think of the air battles over Germany as large formations of USAAF fighters picking on small formations of German fighters the same way every day.

Not true at all....

Demonstrate to me (or ignore me and just please yourself) how the USAAF Fighter Groups achieves parity consistently, much less any numerical advantage?

I cant do that from early to mid 44, but I can definatly say that certain LOCAL numerical superiority situations were sincerely favored to the Allies...

I can illustrate as many times as you wish where smaller forces of fighters are attacking larger forces of German fighters in both Encounter Reports and mission histories. You will see same but opposite in LW reports.

And I can as well, as I too have read too many contact reports in my 41 years, and Im sure uve gone through more than myself... Ive had disussions with certain US pilots that said the same thing about attacking a larger sized LW force, and some that were bounced by a smaller force of 109s and got hammered...

War is hell aint it???

Originally Posted by PBFOOT

I do believe the RAF, RAAf ,RNZAF,RCAF also flew on the same days as the USAAF they didn't stop flying in awe of the USAAF. Do you really think the LW dropped everything else on their plate just to attack the USAAF. Think about it coastal strikes ,day rangers ,gardening etc these "auxilliary units" also had a hand in diverting the LW.

Gotta agree with u there pB... Very good point to bring up...

That is the point I am painfully, but not very clearly, trying to make.

I got u Bill....

[drgondog]

Dan/PB - this one is worth talking about just a little bit because of impressions that could inadvertantly be left behind?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PBFOOT
I do believe the RAF, RAAf ,RNZAF,RCAF also flew on the same days as the USAAF they didn't stop flying in awe of the USAAF. Do you really think the LW dropped everything else on their plate just to attack the USAAF. Think about it coastal strikes ,day rangers ,gardening etc these "auxilliary units" also had a hand in diverting the LW.

Dan - Gotta agree with u there pB... Very good point to bring up...

Although I touched on this in the previous thread - I want to be very clear on this part of the discussion I never intended to imply that the LW 'dropped' everything just to attack USAAF, nor did the R's (RAF, RNZAF, etc) stop flying, in 'awe of the USAAF'

Here is what was happening Jan-May 1944 for PB's benefit.

The entire fury of daytime ops from England for the R's were inflicted within escort range of Spit IX and XIV's, Mustang II's, Typhoons and Tempests for the B-25/A-20s', etc and other light and medium bombers. They were supporting both British AND American efforts all over France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark (a stretch)..

The 8th AF P-47 groups plus some 9th 47 groups were performing inbound and outbound escorts to both 8th BC and 9th AF Mediums to the limits of their range. That limit was roughly a radius curve through Bremen and south to Hannover. It covered the Ruhr and places like Munster, Frankfurt and Stuttgart (a stretch).

The 51's picked up Penetration, Target and Withdrawal Support for the Strategic Heavy Bomber deep raids to Leipzig, Brunswick, Ruhland, Augsburg, Kassel, Munich, Kiel, Hamburg, Merseburg, Misburg, Schweinfurt, Regensburg, etc, etc.

Neither the R's nor the 47s could go there. Mossies had other things to do.

But, effectively JG26 and JG2 in Lufflotte 3 had what was known as "a target rich environment' and could merrily choose to fight against overwhelming numbers of any nationality de jour that suited them... and they weren't near as constrained by 'Fatso' stupid directives to 'avoid the fighter escort' because they had no choice as many of their missions were trying to blunt fighter sweeps or simply trying to stay alive when 70% of the 8th AF Fighter Command plus most of the 9th and all of British TAC air was playing in their sandbox. They were all of Lufflotte 3 single engine fighters available. They occasionally pitched in on the 38s and 51s when they could ambush them going in to meet the bombers or coming home over their 'patch'

Occasionally JG11 and JG53 and and JG3 located more in Central zone could pitch in to help Luft 3, but mostly they waited for the 47's to turn back and then all the Luftflotte Reich had to deal with was 1000 B-17s and B-24s plus 100-250 (max 'effective') long range fighters from 354FG and 20th (P3 and 55th (P-3 from Jan11 forward, then 4th and 355th and 364th (P3 from 2/28-3/8 forward, the 352FG from ~4/10 forward to May1.

Last of the boring summaries -
On Jan1 approximately 96 P-38s would start engines and approximately 40 would actually make the target. This is ALL of the ALLIED fighters available to escort 8th BC past Dummer Lake on January 1, 1944.

On March 1, 144 P-51s could start engines, 96 P-38's would start engines - ~120 would make the target because of mechanical malfunctions in new airplanes..

On May1, 366 combined P-51s and P-38s would SE and more than 60% (~220) would reach the target.. (By August the P-51s reliability was up around 75% effective)

PB - No, the RAF didn't quit, nor did the 56th or 353rd or 78th or 356th (all P-47) quit - they (rest of 8th AF) just could not go to Central and Far Germany until mid to late May. On May 1, 1944 only half of 8th AF Fighter Command's ultimate build up could be available to escort 8th BC in the numbers I just described.

I apologise to you both for 'death by prose'

Regards,

Bill

[lesofprimus]

Good post Bill...

[Trautloft]

axis,i'd love 2 fly a late italian plane like the Centauro or Sagittaro or other rare aircraft.
thats why im so happy about my il2 complete edition, i can fly fiat cr.42's, c,200,c.202 ,c.205 ,even a PZL.p11 or I.A.R.80/81 ,or the weirdo TB-3

[pbfoot]

I appreciate the jist of your point and I'm not arguing the fact of nominal support for the heavies all I am trying to say is I can't fathom the LW being any where as a effective a fighter force as it was in previous years lprior to 44 attrition of the experianced aircrew was extremely high and its really not a place to learn on the job . Its pretty hard to cram tactics gunnery formation flying and basic flight training into 150 hours starting off in a 100 hp Arados and moving up into the realm of 2000hp crotch rockets . Would you let some one with a 150 hrs fly your p51

[Erich]

slight comeback but this to add to Bills post. From late 1943 Heavy twin engine gruppen were brought back from the Ost front redeveloped tactics used and up-gunned the Bf 110G-2 with heavy cannon and additional Br 21cm rockets. In fact it was a July 1943 directive that I have a copy of that directed that all available S/E and twin E units were to take part in the defense of the Homeland, the utmost and most primary mission was to be "bring down US heavy bombers"

[drgondog]

PB - in my humble opinion the deciding factor was Oct 43 through April 44 when the LW commanders were ordered to Ignore the Fighter Escort.

Americans are aggressive enough without being encouraged by perfectly good 109s and 190s as they split S and dove away. The 8th and 9th FC pilots got epxerience, made mistakes and survived to learn from them.

What the LW should have done in retrospect is specifically bounce every formation of P-47s and attempt to wipe them out early, each time taking a toll of experience. For sure they needed to meet them on the coast and try to force dropping of external fuel tanks early.

Having said that I think it would have only delayed the outcome as the 56th, 353rd and 4th and 78th were developing into very good organizations by that time and the key performance boosters in paddle blade props and longer range tanks were on the way.

These debates are good vehicles to test 'accepted tribal knowledge'

Regards,

Bill

[Erich]

seriously Bill in my estimation is that the LW should of inacted a furtherance of it's night time campaign in 1941 with Fernenachtjagd- long distnace night fighting. well during the day having all LW pilots trained in night and bad weather flying able to come over and strafe and bomb Allied airfields in England at un-Godly early morning hours instead of just waiting and listening to all the fighter/bomber engines engage, take off and get into formation and come over and paste Germany, etc........

as we have well noted the LW hierarchy including the FAT ONE made some huge blunders that cost Germany dearly

[Bird-Nerd]

well there was that one part in Battle of Britain (the movie) where the German Squad leader asks for a squad of spitfires and po's the herman goering or whatever his name was guy...
I'd go with allies anyways.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Bird-Nerd

well there was that one part in Battle of Britain (the movie) where the German Squad leader asks for a squad of spitfires and po's the herman goering or whatever his name was guy...
I'd go with allies anyways.

That "Squad Leader" was Adolph Galland.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

seriously Bill in my estimation is that the LW should of inacted a furtherance of it's night time campaign in 1941 with Fernenachtjagd- long distnace night fighting. well during the day having all LW pilots trained in night and bad weather flying able to come over and strafe and bomb Allied airfields in England at un-Godly early morning hours instead of just waiting and listening to all the fighter/bomber engines engage, take off and get into formation and come over and paste Germany, etc........

as we have well noted the LW hierarchy including the FAT ONE made some huge blunders that cost Germany dearly

Total agreement on the point. As I recall one staffeln of 410s shadowed a B-24 group on an early evening return to England and snuck in to shot down (? can't recall date (summer 44?) or numbers - CRS) more than a couple for a spectacular success and to my knowledge never repeated it.

As to night strafing, pop some flares and go down and make at least one run over any airfield and it would look like Poltava in July 44 first shuttle mission. Sure the Brit Night Fighters and flak would get a few - but the tactics would have worked well.

Look what the 8th achieved strafing against fighters that could find you and incredible flak.. I can't help but believe Me410s at night would have done very well indeed.

Regards,

Bill

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

That "Squad Leader" was Adolph Galland.

ROFLMAO - the 'squad leader' that was leading JG26 at the time?

[SoD Stitch]

Gotta go with the Germans; overall, they had the best hardware. Yes, the -51was a nice airplane but, IMHO, it was (and still is) overrated. Not much in the way of armament (six .50's was kinda light by 1945), and you had to keep that laminar-flow wing clean or it was useless.

On a one-for-one basis, I'd give the German aircraft/pilot a better than even chance of defeating any Allied aircraft/pilot. Look at the kill ratios by the end of the War; German pilots beat the average (there were more "aces" in the LW than in all of the other world's air forces combined). The highest Allied ace had, what, 40 kills to his credit (Maj. Richard Bong, AAF, P-38 Lightning, Pacific Theater) versus Erich Hartmann (LW, 352 "kills", Me 109G-6 & -10, Eastern Front). What it all came down to, basically, was the overwhelming materiel superiority of the Allies, in particular the US. The US could "afford" to lose 10 planes/pilots for every Axis aircraft shot down, whereas the LW could ill afford to lose any planes and/or pilots in the later stages of the War.

All in all, I'd choose an Axis aircraft any day, particularly if it's an Me 262 or a Do 335 (I'd even settle for a Ta 152 or an Me 109K).

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by SoD Stitch

Gotta go with the Germans; overall, they had the best hardware. Yes, the -51was a nice airplane but, IMHO, it was (and still is) overrated. Not much in the way of armament (six .50's was kinda light by 1945), and you had to keep that laminar-flow wing clean or it was useless.

On a one-for-one basis, I'd give the German aircraft/pilot a better than even chance of defeating any Allied aircraft/pilot. Look at the kill ratios by the end of the War; German pilots beat the average (there were more "aces" in the LW than in all of the other world's air forces combined). The highest Allied ace had, what, 40 kills to his credit (Maj. Richard Bong, AAF, P-38 Lightning, Pacific Theater) versus Erich Hartmann (LW, 352 "kills", Me 109G-6 & -10, Eastern Front). What it all came down to, basically, was the overwhelming materiel superiority of the Allies, in particular the US. The US could "afford" to lose 10 planes/pilots for every Axis aircraft shot down, whereas the LW could ill afford to lose any planes and/or pilots in the later stages of the War.

All in all, I'd choose an Axis aircraft any day, particularly if it's an Me 262 or a Do 335 (I'd even settle for a Ta 152 or an Me 109K).

Wow - that about summed it up..

Out of curiosity do you have any examples of 51s 'wiping out' because of a dirty wing?

Six 50's might be light if you had to attack B-17s but it was definitely all that was needed for German fighters - for that matter the 51B didn't really suffer when all four were functioning - but if you feel that way what would you offer as facts?

I can speak to you about several 8th AF Fighter Groups with a high degree of accuracy and authority - particularly the 355th FG.

It had 21 air aces and did not lose a single ace in air to air combat (but did lose 4 to flak strafing airfields). It finished the war with an air to air ratio of 8:1 which does not include flak, accident, weather or mechanical. All in they destroyed 4+ German a/c (857) for each aircraft lost in operations for all causes (176 total (38 confirmed air 8 unknown) 96 flak 34 mechanical/weather)... and the 355th was only in the top 5 - air to air and top 3 - total a/c destroyed.. They started ops in Sept 1943.

There are a lot of mitigating factors, most importantly fuel deficiencies in early to mid 1944, causing low time German pilots to be thrown into combat to get slaughtered - starting in spring to summer of 44 - but the LW did not have their way with Allied fighter pilots after 1943...and they ended the war with quite a few of their aces alive.

Having said that, your opinion is as valuable as mine as we are debating not fighting

Regards,

Bill Marshall

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by SoD Stitch

Gotta go with the Germans; overall, they had the best hardware. Yes, the -51was a nice airplane but, IMHO, it was (and still is) overrated. Not much in the way of armament (six .50's was kinda light by 1945), and you had to keep that laminar-flow wing clean or it was useless.
.

I too am not a big P-51D fan (It was an excellent aircraft though) but there is a reason for its armament.

What was its primary target?

Bombers or fighters?

Fighters ofcourse.

6 .50 Cal is eneogh when you only have to deal with fighters.

If the P-51D would have had to deal with a Luftwaffe bombing offensive like the ones the USAAF and RAF were putting on to Germany then its armament would have been more suited for bombers, ie 20mm and above, etc..

Look at the Luftwaffe aircraft as the war progressed the armament evolved based off of the thread.

Early war years when the Luftwaffes main thread was not the B-17 and B-24.

Bf 109D 4x 7.9mm
Bf 109E 2x 20mm and 2x 7.9mm
Bf 109F 1x 15mm and 2 7.9mm

Mid to late war years when the bombing offensive was at the most:

Bf 109G-6 1x 30mm (or 2x 20mm) and 2x 13mm
Bf 109K-4 1x 30mm and 2x 15mm