Which side would you fly for?.......

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Wow - that about summed it up..

Out of curiosity do you have any examples of 51s 'wiping out' because of a dirty wing?

No, I don't have any examples of any -51's "wiping out" due to a dirty wing, but I do know it's performance was severly affected if the wing wasn't kept clean. Quote from "Combat Development In World War Two: Fighter Aircraft", by Alfred Price: "Although this high-speed laminar-flow section gave a lower drag than the other two (wings) when it was in good condition and highly polished, it's efficiency fell rapidly if particles of dirt or crushed insects adhered to the leading edge . . ."

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I too am not a big P-51D fan (It was an excellent aircraft though) but there is a reason for its armament.

What was its primary target?

Bombers or fighters?

Fighters ofcourse.

6 .50 Cal is eneogh when you only have to deal with fighters.

If the P-51D would have had to deal with a Luftwaffe bombing offensive like the ones the USAAF and RAF were putting on to Germany then its armament would have been more suited for bombers, ie 20mm and above, etc..

Look at the Luftwaffe aircraft as the war progressed the armament evolved based off of the thread.

Early war years when the Luftwaffes main thread was not the B-17 and B-24.

Bf 109D 4x 7.9mm
Bf 109E 2x 20mm and 2x 7.9mm
Bf 109F 1x 15mm and 2 7.9mm

Mid to late war years when the bombing offensive was at the most:

Bf 109G-6 1x 30mm (or 2x 20mm) and 2x 13mm
Bf 109K-4 1x 30mm and 2x 15mm

Excellent argument, very sound; yes, since the P-51 was primarily engaged in fighter vs fighter combat, six (6) .50's are/were adequate.

I was just saying that, by the end of the War, a majority of fighters, Axis aircraft in particular, were armed with some form of cannon, mostly 20mm & 30mm calibers; in an extreme case, the Germans armed late-war 410's with a 50mm auto-load tank cannon in an effort to take the heavy bombers out at longer ranges (up to a mile away). By War's end, the Japanese had developed a rocket-propelled 40mm cannon for knocking down B-29's; unfortunately, the muzzle velocity was so low (760 fps) that it wasn't very accurate.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Because the Axis was having to deal with the bombers.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by SoD Stitch

No, I don't have any examples of any -51's "wiping out" due to a dirty wing, but I do know it's performance was severly affected if the wing wasn't kept clean. Quote from "Combat Development In World War Two: Fighter Aircraft", by Alfred Price: "Although this high-speed laminar-flow section gave a lower drag than the other two (wings) when it was in good condition and highly polished, it's efficiency fell rapidly if particles of dirt or crushed insects adhered to the leading edge . . ."

I had heard that and read it several times, and know North American took pains to instruct ground crews to keep the leading edges clean of mud, debris, etc - but have never found a pilot who had a problem that they could trace to 'dirty wing.

I just finished an email exchange with an old friend of my father who flew for RCAF in Spits, Tempests and 'on loan' to 355th FG when my father was his Squadron CO.

The only issue he had with the Mustang was a.) it would not out turn a 109 at low speed whereas the Spit would and b.) it had a tendency to 'dance' on final in a cross wind more than a Spit or Tempest.

I can personally attest that you had to focus on final and touchdown or possibly end up with a ground loop on your hands.

The background on Peglar is that he had flown some 200 odd missions in Spits and never gotten a shot at a German fighter.. within 2 weeks with the 355th he had a pair, then got another pair 5 weeks later and returned to RAF shortly afterwards (60 day assignement) to fly Tempest V for rest of war. He loved the Mustang at high and medium altitudes especially over enemy territory where he could find a fight -

Anyway - Price was reporting what he read, perhaps not what pilots were actually experiencing? or somehow attached low speed turn stall characteristics to dirty wing laminar flow separation?

Regards,

Bill

[Erich]

SoD throw in the fact that the 8th AF Mustangs were also rippin it up on the LW airfields when no aerial targets were found during 1945. not quite packing the heavier punch of the 9th AF Jugs but still quite adequate to deal with ground tragets-locos/trains and parked a/c sufficently.