What air victory was more important?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by wilbur1

Sod you got it right the japs were on the down hill after that

The IJN carriers still had lots of fight left in them in the Solomons.

Ever hear of the battles of the Santa Cruz Islands and the Eastern Solomons?

[rcpilotjr]

THX to all for the suggestions on the poll.

[davparlr]

1. Battle of Britain. A possibility that the entire war would have changed direction had Britain lost the air BoB and also succumbed to invasion (open debate)
2. Midway. Changed momentum in the Pacific. Must have been a psychological belly punch to the Japanese command structure (I am not sure the common Japanese sailor was aware of the disaster). Had the US lost, the outcome of the war in the Pacific would have been delayed but would have not changed.
3. Guadalcanal. A meat grinder for Japan. US military meets Japanese military with no advantage of sea power or air power and stops them cold. However, had the Japanese had not lost forty percent of their carrier fleet at Midway, the US would have probably had significant trouble keeping the forces at Guadalcanal supplied.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by davparlr

1. Battle of Britain. A possibility that the entire war would have changed direction had Britain lost the air BoB and also succumbed to invasion (open debate)
2. Midway. Changed momentum in the Pacific. Must have been a psychological belly punch to the Japanese command structure (I am not sure the common Japanese sailor was aware of the disaster). Had the US lost, the outcome of the war in the Pacific would have been delayed but would have not changed.
3. Guadalcanal. A meat grinder for Japan. US military meets Japanese military with no advantage of sea power or air power and stops them cold. However, had the Japanese had not lost forty percent of their carrier fleet at Midway, the US would have probably had significant trouble keeping the forces at Guadalcanal supplied.

IJN never recovered from Midway carrier losses. I don't believe we could have invaded Guadalcanal and been successful absent Midway battle. In my opinion the most important event in the PTO

BoB crucial to entire war and first time to blunt LW air superiority

Battle of Germany - first half of 1944 critical to establish air superiority over LW.

[pbfoot]

IMHO think Malta should be 2nd without Malta the Med would have been a far costlier affair , suppling the Africa Corps would have been far easier with the possibility of losing the Suez Canal as an end result

[Hollywood]

I agree with the above evaluations for the most part........

B.O.B. #1
Midway #2 To start the Japs on a downhill slide and
Battle of Philippean Sea "Mariannas Turkey Shoot" #3 to push
them past the point of no return.....
Guadalcanal was an air/sea nightmare for Japan. They didn't call
it "The Island of Death" for nothing.......

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

IMHO think Malta should be 2nd without Malta the Med would have been a far costlier affair , suppling the Africa Corps would have been far easier with the possibility of losing the Suez Canal as an end result

That is a good point..actually, each of the critical battles need to be reviewed sequentially in the context of what was important at the time

If I rank my 'most important' battels sequentially by time and magnitude of the stakes I think I would start with BoB - first time LW failed to achieve its mission, then Battle of Atlantic and North Africa (including Malta) to protect supply and logistics, then Stalingrad and Midway as the 'high tide reversal' of the Axis, to the Battle of Germany to cripple the LW ability to create havoc for the Invasion- then Normandy campaign and associated drive by USSR in the east to invade Axis territory..then the huge naval and ground battles around the Phillipines to the taking of Mariana's for B-29 bases.

At this time the fate of Japan and Germany is sealed

[parsifal]

I think the Black week in 1944 needs to be considered. 1600 german fighters in a week (well more or less) should not be scoffed at. Thats more than the entire BoB.

For the poms, one would be hard pressed to go past hamburg...what was it Speer said... something like "three or four more like that and we are done for!"

[syscom3]

The destruction of the skilled IJN carrier pilots (that remained after the Guadalcanal campaign) occured guring the 9 months of air battles over Rabaul and nearby. This was from spring 1943 to Feb 1944

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The destruction of the skilled IJN carrier pilots (that remained after the Guadalcanal campaign) occured guring the 9 months of air battles over Rabaul and nearby. This was from spring 1943 to Feb 1944

I agree those campaigns important as far as attrition is concerned.

I also feel the loss of four carriers and the many airmen and skilled flight deck personnel in one stroke cut IJN's strategic footprint in half - never to regain initiative in Pacific again.

The Japanese could prioritize pilots and transfer from other fronts as quickly as they chose to do so.. but they couldn't lay four keels and rebuild to point of June 1942 in time to do any good, at their most important strategic point in the war - particularly if they intended to take Hawaii and Australia and dig in.

If the IJN had even split the battle similar to Coral Sea I doubt we could have invaded Guadalcanal for another year. Strictly opinion but I feel the Defeat at Midway and loss of the carriers was far more important to Japan's defeat than any engagement in the war.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by drgondog

....... I also feel the loss of four carriers and the many airmen and skilled flight deck personnel in one stroke cut IJN's strategic footprint in half - never to regain initiative in Pacific again.......

If youre referring to Midway, the official IJN records show that the loss of airmen was minimal.

The loss of the skilled mechanics was worse, but tolerable.

I have the figures at home, and will post them if interested.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by syscom3

If youre referring to Midway, the official IJN records show that the loss of airmen was minimal.

I'm comfortable with Midway losing far fewer aircraft than many future battles

The loss of the skilled mechanics was worse, but tolerable.

The loss of mechanics is interesting but IJN should have been able to replace those easier than the pilots

I have the figures at home, and will post them if interested.

Syscom - My thesis isn't that Midway was the 'greatest PTO airbattle' - only the Most Important and the worst single relative loss they suffered.

Their war was lost the day the fourth and last carrier went down. I don't believe they ever had a remote chance but who knows how long it would have taken if the losses were reversed and we lost our carrier fleet instead.

[syscom3]

Its a popular misconception that Midway caused the demise of the IJN air force, due to many pilots and crews being killed on the carriers.

This wasnt true.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Its a popular misconception that Midway caused the demise of the IJN air force, due to many pilots and crews being killed on the carriers.

This wasnt true.

Syscom - I make no case that Midway was terrible loss in aircrews.

Where do you read any comments from me that Midway caused the demised of the IJN air force?

I am saying and only saying that the loss of four carriers at that stage of the war was crippling to the IJN - period.

They could lost zero pilots, zero a/c, zero air and ground crews and it is still the biggest battle the IJN fought and lost - period. I am saying that they could have had 500 replacement pilots ready to step in and it was still the biggest disaster the IJN ever experienced. I am saying they could lose more carriers later over a period of time - and it doesn't matter. I could be wrong about this opinion but I am not changing the opinion.

They had bigger losses in tonnage, more pilots lost, more KIA - but no battle touched this one.

Repeat - I don't care from an historical perspective that IJN aircraft losses were zero, minimal, average, large or huge - what ever their losses, pilots and crews far easier to replace than the carriers that hammered Pearl Harbor.

You opinions to the contrary are no less informed than mine. Let's agree to disagree.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

It must have been a real sadness to the Japanese when they lost their two Yamato Class Battleships. But by then they were losing the war.