Who shot down the Red Baron?

[kool kitty89]

Snoopy

And here's what wikipedia has to say on it:

After ninety years of controversy and contradictory hypotheses, exactly who fired the fatal shot remains uncertain.

The RAF credited Brown with shooting down the Red Baron. However, Richthofen died following an extremely serious and inevitably fatal chest wound from a single bullet, penetrating from the right armpit and resurfacing next to the left nipple. If this was from Brown's guns, Richthofen simply could not have continued his pursuit of May for as long as he did.[12] Brown himself never spoke much about what happened that day, claiming "There is no point in me commenting, as the evidence is already out there".

Most experts now believe that Richthofen was killed by someone on the ground.[12][14] The wound through his body indicated that it had been caused by a bullet moving in an upward motion, from the right side, and more importantly, that it was probably received some time after Brown's attack.[12]

Many sources, including a 1998 article by Dr. Geoffrey Miller, a physician and historian of military medicine, and also a U.S. Public Broadcasting Service documentary made in 2003, have suggested that Sergeant Cedric Popkin was the person most likely to have killed Richthofen.[12][14] Popkin was an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner with the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company, and was using a Vickers gun. He fired at Richthofen's aircraft on two occasions: first as the Baron was heading straight at his position, and then at long range from the right. Popkin stated — in a 1935 letter, which included a sketch map — to the Australian official war historian, that he believed he had fired the fatal shot as Richthofen approached his position. Such a shot would have been from directly in front of the aircraft and could not have been the one that resulted in the Baron's death. However, Popkin was well placed to fire the fatal shot when Richthofen passed him for a second time on the right.[12][14]

One source, a 2002 documentary produced by the Discovery Channel suggests that Gunner W. J. "Snowy" Evans, a Lewis machine gunner with the 53rd Battery, 14th Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Australian Artillery is likely to have killed von Richthofen.[13] However, Dr. Miller and the PBS documentary dismiss these theories.[12][14]

Other sources have suggested that Gunner Robert Buie (also of the 53rd Battery) may have fired the fatal shot. There is now little support for this theory.[12][14] Nevertheless, in March 2007, the municipality of Hornsby Shire, in Sydney, recognised Buie, a former resident, as the man who shot down Richthofen. The Shire placed a plaque near Buie's former home in the suburb of Brooklyn.[15] Buie, who died in 1964, has never been officially recognised in any other way.

The commanding officer of No. 3 Squadron AFC, Major David Blake suggested initially that Richthofen had been killed by the crew of one of his squadron's R.E.8s, which had also fought Richthofen's unit that afternoon. However, this was quickly disproved, and, following an autopsy that he witnessed, Blake became a strong proponent of the view that an AA machine gunner had killed Richthofen.

Note W. J. "Snowy" Evans and Robert Buie of the 53rd Battery, 14th Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Australian Artillery are also mentioned.

also NOVA | Who Killed the Red Baron? | PBS

[Njaco]

I watched that docu...it was informative. Kinda like CSI: Richtohfen.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

He landed the plane intact before dying, right. (I remember hearin on a doccumentary that his plane was burned afterward but according to wikipedia it was picked apart for souvenirs)

Parts of his aircraft are in England and Canada.

[FLYBOYJ]

There's also remains of his aircraft in Australia

[Bigxiko]

i believe it was Sergeant Cedric Popkin

[CharlesBronson]

The angle of entry and exit of the 7,7 mm bullet in Von Richthofen body clearly indicated that the fatal shot could never being delivered by Brown or any airborne gun.

[v2]

I'm going with Roy....

[timshatz]

I kinda wax and wane back and forth on this one. I originially thought it was Brown when I was younger. Then heard the evidence that a ground gunner did it. However, the more I looked at it, the more I believed the later evidence was somewhat skewed. All of it came to light long after the war from various sources, many first hand but some second. The ground shot arguement is benefited by most of the believers not being there at the time.

The arguement on the angle of the bullet strike seems to say it was ground fire. But a pilot turning around to look back (in a slight bank to the left- which my understanding of a triplane and it's quirky flying chracteristics is very common) would give you the same bullet wound as somebody shooting from the ground at an upward angle. And Brown attacked from the back right quadrent (at least he did from what I've read). The angle of the wound used to be considered final testimate for the ground shot, now I am less sure.

Futher, the time of flight after the hit and Brown's distance away when it happened are both up to conjecture. Some things in the whole story I do not know the answer to:

1. Brown made a slashing attack from the right to the left, firing at the triplane and then....what? Did he fly away leaving the Triplane on May's tail? According to the ground fire arguement, he flew away and they shot the Barron down a minute or so later. Why would Brown do that? It makes no sense. Only if he fired, the Triplane broke away from May and then settle to the ground, does it work. Then, there is no reason for Brown to fire again as the Triplane was going down.

2. The math of hitting a target moving 100mph at 600 yds with a single Vickers gun is lousy when compared to hitting the same target from behind right with two guns at less than 100 yds.


In this case, I think Occam's Razor applies. The simplest answer is probably the right one.

[KrazyKraut]

It would be interesting to know how many bullets struck his plane and where the impacts were. Both theories have their points, so far the AAA theory seems most simple and plausible to me.

[pbfoot]

The show on PBS made a compelling argument for Popkin but I don't know how they can be so sure as those aircraft were very flighty and I'm sure he wasn't flying straight and level . Brown as far as I know did not claim him but was given the kill by the powers to be

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Brown as far as I know did not claim him but was given the kill by the powers to be

Yep - Because that very week the RFC became the RAF - they needed the press!!!!

[slaterat]

Actually Brown did put in a claim. In any fair assessment of air to air claims, Brown gets credit. He dove to the attack, he fired a long burst, he observed strikes on the ea , including the pilot slumping over in his seat. He disengaged when they got too close to the ground, pulled up and and observed the ea crashing.

Yep - Because that very week the RFC became the RAF - they needed the press!!!!

False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career.

Throughout his life Brown was a class act never bragging or even talking about the death of Richthofen. Oddly enough, people would later use this against Brown to push forward the idea that the claim was somehow hollow. In reality, in his personal diary Brown was absolutely convinced that he had killed the Red Baron. Physically Brown wasn't in any better condition than Richthofen at the time , and he felt a lot of empathy for his deceased opponant. Unlike a lot of fighter pilots Brown wasn't a glory seeker. He did his job as best he could and tried to always protect the inexperianced pilots of his unit. This was in fact exactly what he was doing when he shot down Richthofen, flying to the aid of rookie Canadian pilot Wilfred May who came very close to being number 81.

No one can be absolutely sure who fired the fatal bullet. There is a bullet hole through the backside of the Red Barons seat, its in a museum here in Canada. Brown was in the best position by far to make that shot. All the theories about bullet trajectories entry/exit wounds are just that , theories. Wilfred May was performing violent un co-ordinated manoeuvres to try to throw off the Barons attack. Eye witness testimony is contradictory as to how long the Red Baron was in the air after Brown fired. No internal autopsy was performed, it cannot be said for certain that his heart was pierced. His ability to keep his plane in the air and how long it was in the air remain in question.

Brown got the credit but it may have been fate, more than anything, that caught up with him that day.

Slaterat

[smg]

the red baron was shotdown by a british riflemen that got lokey and never got the kill it eas a one in a million shot

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by slaterat

False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career.

One of the first books written on this subject in 1968 by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan mentions the argument with the newly established RAF and the Australian ground unit who also claimed to have shot down Richthofen. Brown did claim the triplane and it was eventually awarded to him. he was not used as a propaganda tool but the RAF did get press in the weeks after the red baron was killed.

"On the morning of the 22nd of April, No.3 Sqn Australian Flying Corps withdrew their claim as it was determined the combat between the squadron's RE8s and Richthofen's Flying Circus was too early to be the decisive combat. At about the same time the recording officer in No.209 Sqn Royal Air Force retyped Browns Combat In The Air Report. Brown and his squadron commander both signed it. Major Butler added to the report, "One Decisive".

In the afternoon of the 22nd Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen was buried with full military honours by No.3 Squadron Australian Flying Corps. On the 23rd a Royal Air Force aircraft dropped photographs of the grave over the German lines so that the Luftstreitkrafte would know of the Red Barons grave and that he had been buried with the respect due their greatest Ace.

Royal Air Force Headquarters decided to go ahead with full support for Browns claim even though they were aware of the first two medical examinations which suggested ground fire was the cause of Richthofen's demise. The justification was partly decided on the basis of morale as the Royal Air Force had suffered considerably in the previous months. It is believed that Royal Air Force HQ told the NO.209 Squadron pilots not to mention the matter to anyone. Until their deaths, the No.209 Squadron pilots recounting of the events followed the Royal Air Forces version."

Who Killed The Red Baron? || kuro5hin.org

An interesting site...


ANZACS-RED-BARON

[timshatz]

I had read somewhere the Brown was taken out of combat as a result of ulcers. Anyone else read that? Slat notes he crashed a couple of weeks after MVR was shot down and I've read he didn't last in combat but a few weeks after the fight with MVR.

Anybody got any more info on that? Did he crash AND have ulcers?