Who shot down the Red Baron?

FLYBOYJ · 07-08-2008, 12:14 PM

Here's Wiki's take - it seems he was ill a year earlier..

Roy Brown (pilot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

timshatz · 07-08-2008, 01:07 PM

Good read Flyboy.

Soundbreaker Welch? · 07-08-2008, 09:27 PM

The Red Baron was ill too. He was having terrible headaches from an earlier wound to the head.

Some people have wondered if it even affected his judgement on that fateful day, because the way he chased Roy Brown's (nephew?) was rather uncharacteristic of him, allowing himself to be drawn close to the ground, and prolonging a fight by chasing down an enemy fighter. For one, he even had Roy on his tail.

The Baron's motto was a quick kill, fly in quickly, possibly from above, and get out fast.

Erich Hartmann followed that rule a lot too.

FLYBOYJ · 07-08-2008, 11:44 PM

Wop May was not Brown's nephew, but they did know each other. May chased Wolfram von Richthofen (Manfred's cousin) who was also a green pilot - when the baron saw this he began chase and the rest is history.

eddie_brunette · 07-09-2008, 08:17 AM

I would say both

edd

timshatz · 07-09-2008, 08:29 AM

Now this thing is starting to bug me! Spent about an hour last night kicking it around in my head. Here are the odd points I came up with.

1. Bullet hole in the seat. First time I've heard of it. If so, it could prove direction of fire. Anybody know if there is a picture of it online.

2. If Brown did not kill MVR, why did he fly away (point already brought up)? He said in his combat report that he fired and saw the pilot slump in the cockpit....is this report available online?

3. MVR is attacked from behind and doesn't react to it? Guy was the Pro of WW1 air fighting and he allows somebody to shoot up his airplane (again, Brown's report- wish we could see it) and flies on like nothing happened? Seems very odd.

4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died. If that were the case, he would've had to have crash landed within 100 yards of the witnesses at the max for them to get there in time and even that is stretching it.

Like I said, all odd stuff I'm just trying to figure out this, that and the other thing. Trying to get some kind of lineal progression to the thing and right now don't.

If you look at the stories told by the witnesses on the ground and in the air, two different aircraft were shot down.

In the air, it is a quick, slashing attack on a Triplane on the tail of a Camel, shorly thereafter the plane banks and crash lands. If you take it from the ground (getting this one from Unsolved History), MVR has banked away from the Camel and is flying back towards his lines (with Brown nowhere to be seen) when he turns, dives and crash lands.

slaterat · 07-09-2008, 10:43 PM

It is very confusing, especially the more you read and think about it. So many different versions of what happened. It demonstrates that eye witness testimony just isn't very accurrate.

Here's a couple more links. One is a website devoted to Wop May that has a picture of the seat; and to my surprise the bullet hole(s) are a myth. They are actually damaged mounting holes. I'm gonna have to have a rum and coke to get over this one.

[link]http//:WopArticleLayout[/link]

The second link is a website on Canadian fighter pilots with some good info on Roy Brown including a brief combat report, and picture of the damaged tri-plane

[link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]

There used to be another site that had some pages from Browns diary but it appears to be defunct. There's also a new biography about Brown that was released last November but its sold out. I'll get one asap.

Slaterat , getting my drink now....

Njaco · 07-10-2008, 08:52 AM

Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.

timshatz · 07-10-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaco

Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.

Njaco, saw the show. Actually, it was one of two shows that I've seen. One was a NOVA on PBS and the other was Unsolved History. Both were pretty good, if you believed he was shot down from the ground. Saw the one with the laser, think that was Unsolved History.

My concern about both shows was the need (seemingly common these days) to go against the established line. It tends to negate evidence that doesn't support the premise of the show.

Still, doesn't mean either show was wrong, just seemed slanted.

timshatz · 07-10-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slaterat

[link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]
....

Ok, now to make things even more confusing, this is what I read from one of Slat's links:

"Signed report of 3 Sqn., A.F.C. Eqpt. Officer, is present (N.J. Warenford). He arrived at site at 2 p.m. when machine was being shelled by H.E., body still in wreckage rope was fastened around body"

According to this report, MVR was still in the aircraft after several hours and the story of the guy pulling him out and hearing him say something in German is...questionable?

Man, seems like everyone has a hand in this story.

Mix me a drink too Slat, there are just too many people associated with this one anymore to get an accurate line on it.

B-17engineer · 07-19-2008, 08:08 AM

I am going other. I believe a Lewis gun or some other machine gun shot him down. There were about 5-6 Lewis guns when "The Red Baron" was chasing a British plane. The show I watch stated 3 Lewis guns had a clear shot and they all took it. Hitting Richtoven in the side. I forgot the Names of all three gunners...I'll look it up

KrazyKraut · 07-23-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died.

Do you refer to the wikipedia article where it is said he mumbled "kaputt" and died? Because that seems made up to me: Kaputt is such a stereotypical and non-fitting word it just seems too much like something someone thought up to tell a story.

I just read on the page FLYBOYJ posted that Brown's first official report said "indicisive", which was later changed when they found out MvR died. Makes you wonder...

timshatz · 07-23-2008, 08:36 AM

One other thing comes to mind about the ground fire. Were these guys particularly good at aircraft recognition? Seems to me that most of these guys just shot at anything that flew. They might just as well been shooting at the Camels as the Fokker.

Agree with you KK, this thing is all over the place.

If I had to guess, I would say there were a good dozen guns going in all directions on the ground. Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?

CharlesBronson · 08-03-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?

Actually it wasnt so difficult to recognize the Richthofen s plane, all red even the center wheels, at 15 m from the ground and 130 or 140 km.....

merlin · 08-30-2008, 08:43 AM

I saw the programme about it on TV last night. Compelling viewing, well presented, and more importantly - compelling evidence - from those who were there.
It was interesting that Brown did not give evidence at the enquiry, taking the view that having been credited with the enemy aircraft that was as 'official' as it needed to be. But to participate, would have opened up his recollections to analysis (such as it was then), which may have compremised his 'score' - he couldn't take the risk.
Interesting too, correspondence that came to light about eye-witnesnesses who got to Richtofen after he landed. Therefore, knowing he was alive when he landed with the injuries he received, they could tell the combat with Brown (this was seen) was too early for time-of-death. Hence, it would be ground fire (it would have been easier if different ammunition was used - but it wasn't), and Popkin's second burst fitted being in the right place (angle of bullet entry) and right time ( of death).
So it is Popkin.