Wich was the worst nation in the war?

[syscom3]

I have to agree with Soren to some degree.

The German army was a well led and magnificently equipped force.

It was usually defeated in the field only because the allies had superior logistics and air power.

They were not supermen, but not push overs either.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The US was not involved in the war at that time so any "ineptness" was impossible to prove.

The French ranked high so the fall was made worse.

Hmmm, the US got quite a beating in 1941/first half of 1942 against Japan. They were lucky they could withdraw and gather strength. The French didn´t have that luxury.

The German army was a well led and magnificently equipped force.

It was usually defeated in the field only because the allies had superior logistics and air power.

You´re right. Interestingly, I read about an exeption on that. German 22nd division paratroopers were defeated within 24 hours by Dutch recrutes(!) in 1940. You can imagine I read that twice before realising what was said

[syscom3]

Any ineptness the US had was measured against the immense industrial and manpower reserves the US had.

We could mess up and not impact the course of the war.

One big difference between the US and France in 1939 .....
France was equipped and ready for war. The US was still in our isolationist mode.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Any ineptness the US had was measured against the immense industrial and manpower reserves the US had.

We could mess up and not impact the course of the war.

One big difference between the US and France in 1939 .....
France was equipped and ready for war. The US was still in our isolationist mode.

True. I would say for the US, having water between them and their enemy was also a great help.

As for France, that is counts for most countries in 1940 including the UK. They were however ill prepared for the new tactics the Germans used. In a trench war they probably would have stood a chance, but the Germans thought otherwise. Their (France) pre-war defense policy was a disaster, but again, not unlike most other countries, including the US and UK.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

Just very tired of Soren's point of view that the German military in WW II was the greatest fighting force in the history of the world.

TO

Aha got you, and agree.

Originally Posted by syscom3

I have to agree with Soren to some degree.

The German army was a well led and magnificently equipped force.

It was usually defeated in the field only because the allies had superior logistics and air power.

They were not supermen, but not push overs either.

Agreed. I don't think I could have said it better.

[The Basket]

I'm not a fan of French bashing.

Read about Verdun or Napoleon or the fact that American independence was based on French support.

They got it wrong in 1940. they paid for it,

The Germans and the Japanese were the wrong'uns who tried to conquer the world and got devastated for their trouble.

[stasoid]

Hitler, in my opinion, made a fatal mistake by invading Russia in 1941. Had he finished England first, so Americans wouldnt have a brigehead to open the Second Front in Europe, he would have gotten a chance to defete the USSR later on.

Originally Posted by Soren

Entering the Soviet Union was btw no mistake, the Germans could've easily taken the USSR if it again hadn't been for a number of disasterous decisions made by Hitler

Easily taken the USSR? Look at the map my friend. In a war with Russia you can achieve some tactical superiority like taking industrial centers or even capturing its capital city but that doesnt mean the war is over.

In 1941/42 the soviets relocated their industrial potential from the european part of the country to the east behind Ural mountains 2000 miles away from the front line, built hundrieds of new factories in Siberia increasing military production by several times each subsequent year.

Have you heard anything about guerilla war in German's rear? There were tens or even hundreds of thouthands men aged from 12 to 70 who took weapon and fought for several years non-stop.

This war for Germany could have lasted for 5, 10, 15 years... until the last German soldier was killed. Hitler took a risky gamble with some illusive goals. It's not even clear what he was hoping to achieve there...

[parsifal]

hi stasoid

i find found Sorens haughty dismissal of Soviet resistance and the sheer scale of the country and the problems that causes any invader, quite breathtaking. However, given a different approach to the campaign, it may have been possible to extract a negotiated peace or truce from the Soviets in 1941 or 1942. However, this could at best be temporary, and certainly does not vindicate the decision to go into Russia in the first place. This, was without a doubt in my mind, a blunder of the first magnitude. And the proof of this is in the result....germany's defeat can be directly traced back to her decision to invade the USSR

[The Basket]

Originally Posted by parsifal

hi stasoid

i find found Sorens haughty dismissal of Soviet resistance and the sheer scale of the country and the problems that causes any invader, quite breathtaking. However, given a different approach to the campaign, it may have been possible to extract a negotiated peace or truce from the Soviets in 1941 or 1942. However, this could at best be temporary, and certainly does not vindicate the decision to go into Russia in the first place. This, was without a doubt in my mind, a blunder of the first magnitude. And the proof of this is in the result....germany's defeat can be directly traced back to her decision to invade the USSR

Hitlers invasion of USSR was political as well as racial. Hitler was the enemy of Jews and Communism and it was the prize of living space too.

The Germans would have done far better if they promised the Soviet people bread and freedom.

Mass murder, starvation and slavery isn't exactly vote winners.

[Soren]

The time it took the Germans to be at the very gates of the city Moscow only serves to illustrate how easily Germany could've won if it hadn't been for Hitler's disasterous decision not to send his troops wintercloths. This idiotic decision by Hitler completely stalled the offensive and hundreds of thousands German soldiers froze to death, and the ones who managed to survive had their combat effectiveness drastically reduced as they both had to fight the cold and Soviets at the same time. That was the break the Soviets had been looking for.

Had Hitler sent his men their winterclothing Stalingrad would've fallen before the end of 42 and a strong foothold had been established, and then the German army could concentrate on capturing the oil fields of the Caucasus region, which undoubtedly would've followed suit soon after.

With the Caucasus oil fields captured the war would've been over for the Soviets as the Germans from then would've established a sound supply route and were now well supplied with fuel & oil to power their drive further into the Soviet Union.

Stalin knew all this and therefore had already made plans at how to establish a peace settlement with the Germans during the battle of Stalingrad, being only days away from surrendering the city when the Germans were in control of over 90% of it.

[Soren]

The time it took the Germans to be at the very gates of the city Moscow only serves to illustrate how easily Germany could've won if it hadn't been for Hitler's disasterous decision not to send his troops wintercloths. This idiotic decision by Hitler completely stalled the offensive and hundreds of thousands German soldiers froze to death, and the ones who managed to survive had their combat effectiveness drastically reduced as they both had to fight the cold and Soviets at the same time. That was the break the Soviets had been looking for.

Had Hitler sent his men their winterclothing Stalingrad would've fallen before the end of 42 and a strong foothold had been established, and then the German army could concentrate on capturing the oil fields of the Caucasus region, which undoubtedly would've followed suit soon after.

With the Caucasus oil fields captured the war would've been over for the Soviets as the Germans from then would've established a sound supply route and were now well supplied with fuel & oil to power their drive further into the Soviet Union.

Stalin knew all this and therefore had already made plans at how to establish a peace settlement with the Germans during the battle of Stalingrad, being only days away from surrendering the city when the Germans were in control of over 90% of it.

[parsifal]

Yeah, they could have done lots of things, but they didnt, why, because they were ineptly led...hence they are front runners for the crown worst country of WWII

PS. The only way this can be disproved, is if someone concedes that there were limits to German military capability

[Njaco]

I agree with Basket. From what I've read, when the German armies "liberated" vast areas of the USSR the populace actually greeted them as saviours. It was only when the follow-up occupation forces came in and terrorized them that the partisans emerged. If this is true, then that may have been a even bigger blunder than military objectives.

[parsifal]

I dont give the "Russian Alliance" theories much more credence than Sorens "Aryan Supremacy" c*ap. Hitler had made plain his intentions regarding Russia and the Russian peoples since Mein Kampf, and they made the Holocaust look like a picnic in the park. Fundamental to the Nazi creed was the idea of Living Space, guess whos living space that was. It was the Ukraine and beyond. guess what the plan was right from before even the Nazis were in power, to exterminate the current peoples to make way for this living space drivel. To turn that on its head at the last minute was akin to trying to make a lion go vegetarian, it just aint gonna happen boys

[Njaco]

I agree with you Pars but if that wasn't the creed - the subhuman Slavik races - would making peace with the populace in a common fight against the Soviet regime have been a better outcome? Just curious.