THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!? - Page 3 - Aircraft of World War II

evangilder · 09-06-2005, 04:54 PM

Maybe, but wasn't one spotted at area 51?

FLYBOYJ · 09-06-2005, 09:20 PM

Fun stuff!

Nonskimmer · 09-06-2005, 10:27 PM

All that movie did in the end was give a booster shot to the old Arrow conspiracy theory, because that's exactly the angle that they approached it from. I thought it was a good idea for a film, but it was very poorly written.

FLYBOYJ · 09-07-2005, 10:08 AM

Agree - it would of served history better if it wasn't "Hollywoodized."

evangilder · 09-07-2005, 11:30 AM

That's true with a lot of movies though, unfortunately.

FLYBOYJ · 09-07-2005, 12:23 PM

I was once told by one of the AVRO engineers i knew who worked at lockheed say that AVRO and the DND were worried about the leaking of technology at the end of the Arrow program. Hell, most of it just filled out Lockheed job applications!

Nonskimmer · 09-07-2005, 02:39 PM

Exactly. There wasn't much point in worrying about technology leaks when virtually every employee who ever worked on the thing, who you've just fired, has almost immediately found work with another aerospace company. Duh.

FLYBOYJ · 09-07-2005, 02:41 PM

Ya know, they had the 6 built, I think I would of just intergrated them into one squadron and used them until they were lost, either through attrition or parts!

Nonskimmer · 09-07-2005, 02:52 PM

I don't think it would've really been worth their while to do that. They would have needed completion to be effective warplanes, and they were running into snags with the fire-control and weapons systems anyway. Prototypes six and seven hadn't even had engines installed yet. They were waiting for the new Iroquois.

FLYBOYJ · 09-07-2005, 03:07 PM

Here's a good one.....

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?...ticle&artid=21

The idea behind this little-known conspiracy theory is that the Diefenbaker government engineered the cancellation of the Arrow as a pay-off to then-premier of Quebec Maurice Duplessis for services rendered during the the 1958 election. Duplessis went to great personal expense to weaken the Liberals in Quebec, paving the way for a conservative landslide. He selected 50 ridings where he felt the Liberals could be defeated, picked Union National candidates, and invested $15,000 per riding. The Conservatives won 50 seats in Quebec. One of the new members was Raymond O'Hurley, who, it is interesting to note, became the new Minister of Defence Production.

The payoff for Duplessis would have been the transfer of the Canadian aircraft manufacturing base from Toronto to Montreal. In 1959 it was decided to replace the F86 Sabre and CF100 in Europe with the supersonic Lockheed 104 Lightning that could be used for interception, tactical bombing and reconnaissance, to be built under license in Canada. The contract to build the engine went to Orenda, but the contract to build the aircraft went to Canadair in Montreal, though allegedly the word on the street was that Avro was the low bidder. This theory needs more silly putty before it holds water.

Nonskimmer · 09-07-2005, 03:11 PM

Whatever.

Although I'll admit, that last one makes a bit of sense to me. The pattern of appeasing Québec at the expense of everyone and everything else continues to this day.

Dac · 09-19-2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Agree - as I mentioned before, the F-5s I seen in Botswana were beautiful, sad to see them given up so soon.

What I thought was the silliest thing of them all was the destructin of all the Arrows. What did that prove?!?

AFAIK they destoyed the aircraft, jigs, tools and most of the blueprints to make sure the CF-105 program couldn't be revived under a new government.

Nonskimmer · 09-19-2005, 11:56 PM

So again, what did that prove? Even if that were true, it still doesn't make a lot of sense.

FLYBOYJ · 09-20-2005, 12:00 AM

Childish!

Nonskimmer · 09-20-2005, 12:02 AM

O Canada.

If in fact that was the case that is.

09-06-2005, 04:54 PM	#31
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,809	Maybe, but wasn't one spotted at area 51? __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

09-06-2005, 09:20 PM	#32
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	Fun stuff! __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-07-2005, 10:08 AM	#34
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	Agree - it would of served history better if it wasn't "Hollywoodized." __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-07-2005, 11:30 AM	#35
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,809	That's true with a lot of movies though, unfortunately. __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

09-07-2005, 12:23 PM	#36
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	I was once told by one of the AVRO engineers i knew who worked at lockheed say that AVRO and the DND were worried about the leaking of technology at the end of the Arrow program. Hell, most of it just filled out Lockheed job applications! __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-06-2005, 10:27 PM	#33
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	All that movie did in the end was give a booster shot to the old Arrow conspiracy theory, because that's exactly the angle that they approached it from. I thought it was a good idea for a film, but it was very poorly written.

09-07-2005, 02:39 PM	#37
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	Exactly. There wasn't much point in worrying about technology leaks when virtually every employee who ever worked on the thing, who you've just fired, has almost immediately found work with another aerospace company. Duh.

09-07-2005, 02:41 PM	#38
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	Ya know, they had the 6 built, I think I would of just intergrated them into one squadron and used them until they were lost, either through attrition or parts! __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-07-2005, 02:52 PM	#39
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	I don't think it would've really been worth their while to do that. They would have needed completion to be effective warplanes, and they were running into snags with the fire-control and weapons systems anyway. Prototypes six and seven hadn't even had engines installed yet. They were waiting for the new Iroquois.

09-07-2005, 03:07 PM	#40
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	Here's a good one..... http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?...ticle&artid=21 The idea behind this little-known conspiracy theory is that the Diefenbaker government engineered the cancellation of the Arrow as a pay-off to then-premier of Quebec Maurice Duplessis for services rendered during the the 1958 election. Duplessis went to great personal expense to weaken the Liberals in Quebec, paving the way for a conservative landslide. He selected 50 ridings where he felt the Liberals could be defeated, picked Union National candidates, and invested $15,000 per riding. The Conservatives won 50 seats in Quebec. One of the new members was Raymond O'Hurley, who, it is interesting to note, became the new Minister of Defence Production. The payoff for Duplessis would have been the transfer of the Canadian aircraft manufacturing base from Toronto to Montreal. In 1959 it was decided to replace the F86 Sabre and CF100 in Europe with the supersonic Lockheed 104 Lightning that could be used for interception, tactical bombing and reconnaissance, to be built under license in Canada. The contract to build the engine went to Orenda, but the contract to build the aircraft went to Canadair in Montreal, though allegedly the word on the street was that Avro was the low bidder. This theory needs more silly putty before it holds water. __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-07-2005, 03:11 PM	#41
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	Whatever. Although I'll admit, that last one makes a bit of sense to me. The pattern of appeasing Québec at the expense of everyone and everything else continues to this day.

09-19-2005, 11:56 PM	#43
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	So again, what did that prove? Even if that were true, it still doesn't make a lot of sense.

09-20-2005, 12:00 AM	#44
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	Childish! __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

09-20-2005, 12:02 AM	#45
Nonskimmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 8,871	O Canada. If in fact that was the case that is.

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