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THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!?

Post-War Discuss THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!? in the Other Eras forums; i think the largest challenge would be find a manouverable fighter from that era the century series and f4 were ...


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Old 10-26-2005, 09:12 AM   #76
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i think the largest challenge would be find a manouverable fighter from that era the century series and f4 were all speed the russians followed suit with the migs and sukhois the sabres and hunters were on the down side in the eras mindset there was considerable debate as to ac needed guns
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Old 10-26-2005, 09:50 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by pbfoot
i think the largest challenge would be find a manouverable fighter from that era the century series and f4 were all speed the russians followed suit with the migs and sukhois the sabres and hunters were on the down side in the eras mindset there was considerable debate as to ac needed guns
I think Viet Nam proved the need for guns, especially close in with a small aircraft.
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Old 10-26-2005, 12:45 PM   #78
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buFirst a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).
First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.
First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.
First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.
First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.
First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.
First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.
First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.
First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.
First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and others certainly used that idea.
First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.
First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).
First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.
Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.
Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).
Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.
Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.
Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)
Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)
First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.
First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.
First oxygen-injection re-light system.
First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.
First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.
First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.
First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.
First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)
The Avro Arrow was one of Canada's finest aviation achievements, even though it never entered service.
Source www.AvroArrow.org
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:45 PM   #79
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Holy post resurrection.
Was the Arrow that good?
Well we shall never know.
Or shall we
Here's a few pics from the magic of computer analysis and generation.









It was a nice plane.

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Old 08-27-2007, 05:11 AM   #80
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Hi Nite,

>Here's a few pics from the magic of computer analysis and generation.

Outstanding! Do you have a link for the X-Plane model shown in the pictures? I have recently tried an Arrow for an older version of X-Plane, but in the latest X-Plane version (V8.60) it had some stability problems and wouldn't fly very well (read: crash by yawing uncontrollably right after take-off).

Thanks in advance!

Henning (HoHun)
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:18 AM   #81
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HoHun,
That's a bit of a trick question.
I sure do have a link, but it's called D:new volume
That is the model I'm building for x-plane v 8.x
When it is done I will be posting it on the net.
It will be accurate in every respect, and include the drooping leading edges, the slight twist to the wings, a accurate cockpit, and hopefully even small details like the landing gear hydraulics, rivets etc
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:30 AM   #82
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I think the importance of the Arrow and also the TSR2 is that the cancellation ruined the aero industries in both countries.

The Arrow would have been a high performer. No doubt.
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:55 AM   #83
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Hi Nite,

>It will be accurate in every respect, and include the drooping leading edges, the slight twist to the wings, a accurate cockpit, and hopefully even small details like the landing gear hydraulics, rivets etc

Sounds great! :-) I'm looking forward to it! Please make sure to announce it on X-Plane.org when it's finished, I wouldn't want to miss it :-)

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Old 09-01-2007, 07:37 PM   #84
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Hey, HoHun.
Want to try the .acf?
Remember, its only 50% done.
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:57 PM   #85
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Again I'll state - the Arrow was a awesome aircraft in its day but in reality the program bit off more than what it can chew. Behind schedule and way over budget, the Diefenbaker's government was going to can it way before it was officially announced. Even in its planned format, it "would of" been able to perform one real function - shoot down Soviet bombers. Put it in a maneuvering conflict with even an F-4 and it "would of" been dead meat - the same holds true for the TSR2 - two extremely fast interceptors but by the late 70s, early 80s obsolete - and for the money that would of been pumped into both programs it would not of been worth its operational duration and ultimate obsolescence.

But with all that said, it did hurt the UK's and Canada's aerospace industry immensely when both programs were cancelled...
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:17 PM   #86
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I look at if they had continued its r/d and come out with the MK-3 it was to top out at MK 2.7 but MK 3.2 was possible they said cruise at Mach 1.2 on the deck and service ceiling 90'000ft
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
Again I'll state - the Arrow was a awesome aircraft in its day but in reality the program bit off more than what it can chew. Behind schedule and way over budget, the Diefenbaker's government was going to can it way before it was officially announced. Even in its planned format, it "would of" been able to perform one real function - shoot down Soviet bombers. Put it in a maneuvering conflict with even an F-4 and it "would of" been dead meat - the same holds true for the TSR2 - two extremely fast interceptors but by the late 70s, early 80s obsolete - and for the money that would of been pumped into both programs it would not of been worth its operational duration and ultimate obsolescence.

But with all that said, it did hurt the UK's and Canada's aerospace industry immensely when both programs were cancelled...
I thought the TSR-2 was originally developed as a low-level tactical nuclear strike bomber? I didn't know they (the UK) had ever planned on developing it as an interceptor; that's what the Lightning was for.
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:42 PM   #88
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Well, you are right in a way.
Behind schedule? Have no idea where you got that one from.
It was supposed to be operational in 1963.
Over budget?
Possibly.
Originally designed at around 2 million cost, it would have been 3.5 million using the Hughes fire control system.
The Astra would have been a good "do all" if it had been successful.
In any event, for the price we paid for those 64 widowmaker voodoos, we could have had 130 Arrows.
As far as Diefenbaker's government canning it, I'm going to go so far as to say you know nothing about the Liberals and C.D. Howe and the Bay Street Boys.
Maneuverability against an F-4?
Stupid statement.
We never had an Arrow vs. Phantom duel.
Plus, like the Arrow, the Phantom was not originally fitted with a gun.
So want to discuss missile vs. missile ?
Or do you wish to discuss what could have been retrofitted?
Is the Arrow outdated?
Probably.
Was it capable of "holding its own" nowadays?
I believe so.
Is there better today?
A few.

As far as "one real function".
Wrong.
That is what the "interchangable weapons pack" was for.
And the sad thing was, I resurrected this thread just to show a bit of computer generated flight models and asked if a guy wanted to try it.
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Old 09-01-2007, 09:07 PM   #89
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The Arrow was a pretty advanced airplane but we just didn't have the where withal to carry it out . i disagree that it ruined our industry we just changed focus . The DHC aircraft being an example and Canadair , Bombardier , CAE , Spar PWC and Bristol let us play with the big boys in aerospace as we are 4th or 5th worlds largest aviation nation.
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Old 09-01-2007, 09:29 PM   #90
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pbfoot,
Agreed.
However, remember Dehavilland, Bristol etc, are all related or spinoffs of...?
The Hawker-Siddeley group, which has now become BAE, and was parent of A.V. Roe.
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