Cold War Intercept

syscom3 · 11-10-2005, 07:12 PM

Ok, so while the Lightning is still accelerating, the F14 fires the Phoenix on wheels up, which streaks to its target 100 miles away at mach 3+.

pbfoot · 11-10-2005, 08:07 PM

i think the reason they state ceilings in the fl500 area is because after that point they are req'd to wear a better flight suit for the higher altitudes same as sr71 and u 2 guys wear. Was the lightning stationed for any length of time in germany or mostly Uk if in the uk almost all interceptions would be over water i hope

plan_D · 11-10-2005, 10:45 PM

If all safety regulations were forgotten and the F-14 launched it's Phoenix missiles from ground level, then they wouldn't have a one hundred mile range. To achieve it's maximum distance (72-135 NM, depending on source) the Phoenix must be fired at a height of around 40,000 feet so it can travel in an arc across it's optimum altitude.

So, for the F-14 to be used properly from a ground strip it has to warm up, set-up it's systems, take-off, climb to 40,000 feet then fire it's missiles. It cannot just rise and fire in an instant. And at $500,000 a piece, the Phoenix would make for one expensive war!

Plus the fact, the Phoenix won't hit everytime, no missile does. You seem to think the AIM-54 achieves a 100% hit. If the Phoenix missile was the ultimate air-to-air missile, why develop others during it's creation and operational usage?

By the way, it only achieves it's distance if the enemy is head-on. On a stern intercept, firing at low altitude, the Phoenix is pretty useless. However, generally it was a remarkable weapon ...but very expensive, and not perfect. The F-14 still had to work to get into position to target it's opponents and release the Phoenix.

Time to altitude for the F-14 was much slower than that of the Lightning.

And Lightnings were stationed in Germany too, yes. I believe there were four squadrons in Germany but I can only remember that 92 Sqdn. was there.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 08:19 AM

Who said anything about firing a Pheonix from ground level? Now you are just making up excuses. The F-14 was far more advanced and better than the Lighthing. The F-14's capabilities were better. They were 2 different classes of interceptors and the F-14 would do better.

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 10:24 AM

"Ok, so while the Lightning is still accelerating, the F14 fires the Phoenix on wheels up..."Syscom did, didn't you read his post?

The only thing the F-14 had over the Lightning was it's payload, nothing else.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 10:41 AM

Read it again pD. Wheels Up means Wheels are up, not down and not on the ground. That means the aircraft is in flight.

The F-14 was just as fast, has a better avionics package, has better weapons. It was a better aircraft. Lightnign was great but a different era basically. Different technology.

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 10:45 AM

...and you can lift up your wheels as soon as you lift off the ground. The Lightning used to do it. Once it reached V1 the pilot would flip wheels up, once he reached V2 he'd lift off just enough to take the pressure off so the wheels would come up and he'd continue shooting down the runway at about seven feet. Then at the end of the runway ... up vertical.

Syscom was implying that the F-14 could launch the Phoenix as soon as it was off the ground ... it wasn't your mistake, don't try and defend him.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

...so the wheels would come up and he'd continue shooting down the runway at about seven feet. Then at the end of the runway ... up vertical.

What you just described is a max performance take off that just about all fighters do. Ive seen F-16's do it in Iraq. Ive seen F-14s do it at airshows. Ive seen F-15's do it at airshows. Standard Maneuver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

Syscom was implying that the F-14 could launch the Phoenix as soon as it was off the ground ... it wasn't your mistake, don't try and defend him.

Dont insult me. I am not defending anyone.

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 11:30 AM

Excuse me? You just said that the I had to read his post again, and told me he was implying the F-14 would be in flight on wheels up. Which is true, however he was implying on the instant of lift-off. For the Phoenix to be able to reach it's measured distance it has to be launched at 40,000 feet.

You claimed that I was making excuses for mentioning firing the Phoenix at ground level, but syscom mentioned it, not me. And you are obviously defending him because he's joining in your argument against me. Just look at what's been said - you defended him by saying "Wheels up means in flight..." - yeah, and he was implying flight on ground level ...not at altitude. Which is EXACTLY why I mentioned it in the previous post. And it's exactly why I mentioned the Lightning flying down the runway at about seven feet - 'cos yeah, he's in flight but he's ground level. And if the F-14 launched it's Phoenix at that level ... then it isn't going to reach 100 NM!

And the F-14 wasn't just as fast the Lightning ...since the F-14 (And F-15) tried to stern intercept a Concorde at 57,000 feet and Mach 2.2 ...none of 'em could catch it. The Lightning could.

syscom3 · 11-11-2005, 11:32 AM

Ok, F14 climbs up tp 100 feet and fires the missles.

The Phoenix would have some degredation from firing at a low altitude, but not by much.

Remember, there were plenty of scenario's where the F14 would be catapulted off the carriers and have to engage incoming cruise missles/bombers right away.

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 11:36 AM

For a start this is from a ground strip ...and secondly, firing from low altitude would massively hamper the range of the Phoenix. Especially if the opponent aircraft is flying at 57,000 feet - the missile has to climb all the way up ...it's range would be embarassing for a long range missile. The pilot would never do anything of the sort - he'd much rather lose time climbing to 40,000 feet and have a missile worth firing than wasting it at 100 feet.

And the speed of the missile would be much slower down low ... just hope it doesn't fire his Phoenix from 100 feet at a Lightning travelling Mach 2 at 40,000 feet - it wouldn't be able to catch it!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 11:37 AM

Alright pD, you said it.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 11:40 AM

Okay that post was for up there not for the last one.

Okay fine the F-14 climbs to 40,000ft and fires its Pheonix. The missle still hits the target before a Lighning can catch it and get in range.

the lancaster kicks ass · 11-11-2005, 03:10 PM

i realise that the AIM-54 was designed to be used on the F-14 or whatever but it's ability to destroy an enemy 100miles comes from a disposable store, not the plane itself, baisically the role of an interceptor is to climb as high as possible as quickly as possible, in which case the lightening beats the F-14.........

syscom3 · 11-11-2005, 03:36 PM

But then the interceptor will need to destroy its target.

It would have been interesting to see a Lightning with the Phoenix missle. You would have to design the system for one man operation, but it could have been done.