Dec 7th, Pearl Harbour - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

syscom3 · 12-08-2005, 09:13 PM

The Aussies deserve plenty of credits and accolades for their actions in NG. The US 31st Infantry Division also saw some really tough action too. In fact the Aussies and American troops in NG had a far tougher fight than the Marines on Guadalcanal.

Untill mid 1943, most US troops were going to the Solomons, and MacArthur had to make do with his motley crew.

I think the fighting conditions in the SW Pacific was probably the worst on earth. Disease, tropical conditions, insects, wildlife and above all, rain, all sapped at the strength and fighting ability of both sides.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-16-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

I agree that he did not have alot of support early on, but when he did retake the island, it was not a stroke of genius, just sheer numbers and better tech (support) on the USA side. That is the hard thing about rating USA Generals, see I cannot think of many times where a USA General was out numbered and his enemy had better tech and still the USA Gereral won. When USA armies win battles most times that I can think of they have outnumbered and/or had much better tech and support. ie attacking a island with 35000 marines when the defender has 65000 men sounds good but if the USA battleships pound away at the enemy for days and planes bomb them around the clock........ well the USA should win that battle. What I am saying is that it is hard to say if a USA General is good or is it the better support and numbers and tech that wins the battles. I would say most times it is the numbers,tech, and support that wins them the battles.

And this coming from someone who has never been in combat.

Dont forget the men who fight the battle. It is not the General in the rear who wins a battle, it is the men on the ground who win the battle.

FLYBOYJ · 12-17-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Yes attacking a larger force with a smaller would be .... unwise but I still have not heard of alot of battles where the USA was attacked with a enemy with numbers, tech and support all on their side and the USA won. Can you point any or many out where they have won under these conditions?

YEP!!!!

Midway! We know that story....

Lete Gulf, Taffy 3

http://www.battleship.org/html/Artic...ory/Leyte5.htm

evangilder · 12-17-2005, 05:28 PM

Excellent example, Joe! Otherwise known as the Battle off Samar. Clifton Sprague was one hell of a commander!

syscom3 · 12-17-2005, 07:22 PM

At Guadalcanal, we usually were out numbered on the ground, air and sea.

FLYBOYJ · 12-18-2005, 02:26 AM

YEP!!!

wmaxt · 12-19-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Yes attacking a larger force with a smaller would be .... unwise but I still have not heard of alot of battles where the USA was attacked with a enemy with numbers, tech and support all on their side and the USA won. Can you point any or many out where they have won under these conditions?

YEP!!!!

Midway! We know that story....

Lete Gulf, Taffy 3

http://www.battleship.org/html/Artic...ory/Leyte5.htm

The thing that pops out at me is that in all three (Pearl, Midway, and Leyte Gulf) the Japanese would have won had they kept on and completed their missions.

One more attack on Pearl would have taken out the fuel stores and the dry docks, at a minimum forcing a reduction in our efforts in the first months of the war (also denying the Yorktown at Midway). At a maximum forcing the fleet to move to San Diego.

They had the firepower and manpower to take Midway anyway, our airpower was essentialy gone, again they would be denying us a stratigic base.

They had Taffy 3 and the landing craft/beaches on the edge, had they come on it would have been a disaster for us.

Esp. in situations like Leyte Gulf, you have what is essentialy a suicide mission, you have to drive it home to succede, the effort and sacrifice is wasted if you turn tail and leave half way through.

wmaxt

evangilder · 12-19-2005, 06:11 PM

While that may be try, it still illustrates the point that these were outnumbered American commanders that fought through and won.

FLYBOYJ · 12-19-2005, 06:35 PM

My ex-father in law was on one of the surviving destroyers during Taffy 3 - I don't remember which one but he hated Admiral Halsey....

He said they got pelted pretty bad....

syscom3 · 12-19-2005, 06:47 PM

The battle of Savo island in Aug 1942 was another example of the IJN not finishing off with a complete victory at hand.

After the IJN had swept away the US (and Aussie) cruisers, they had a free hand to wipe out the invasion force still anchored offshore, just 30 minutes of steaming time away. What did the IJN admiral do? He sailed away happy with what he did, not with what he could accomplish. The idiot!

Had he took out the transports, the US would have lost Guadalcanal before it even started.

wmaxt · 12-20-2005, 07:00 PM

Thats kind of my point, the Japanese gave up and retreated a number of times when, had they continued they would have won. The Americans were lucky the Japanese quit, not good in that we beat them, in those situations - not that I'm questioning their courage or ability they didn't give up, the Japanese did, and thats what won the day. Had the Japanese pushed on those occasions we would have been fighting there for another 5 years.

wmaxt

Hunter368 · 12-20-2005, 07:01 PM

The Japanese had great battles early and then bad later. They were very hot and cold, lol.

wmaxt · 12-20-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

The Japanese had great battles early and then bad later. They were very hot and cold, lol.

Like I pointed out earlier even at Pearl they cut and ran. Had the third strike been launched we would have been so limited we would have lost Coral Sea (no fuel/support for the early missions), Midway (no Yorktown minimum support from Pearl) The possible loss of Austrailia too.

They did the perfect job at Pearl to make sure they lost - they riled us up and left us operational.

wmaxt

Hunter368 · 12-20-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmaxt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

The Japanese had great battles early and then bad later. They were very hot and cold, lol.

Like I pointed out earlier even at Pearl they cut and ran. Had the third strike been launched we would have been so limited we would have lost Coral Sea (no fuel/support for the early missions), Midway (no Yorktown minimum support from Pearl) The possible loss of Austrailia too.

They did the perfect job at Pearl to make sure they lost - they riled us up and left us operational.

wmaxt

True true but hindsight is 20/20.

syscom3 · 12-20-2005, 09:17 PM

Japan had the capacity to hold us off till late 1943. After that time, the Allied forces would have had the quantatative and qualitative edge and Japan would be on borrowed time.

Once the B29's were available in quantity in summer of 1944, then we had the ways of striking any Japanese force/base in the PTO with impunity.

12-08-2005, 09:13 PM	#16
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,283	The Aussies deserve plenty of credits and accolades for their actions in NG. The US 31st Infantry Division also saw some really tough action too. In fact the Aussies and American troops in NG had a far tougher fight than the Marines on Guadalcanal. Untill mid 1943, most US troops were going to the Solomons, and MacArthur had to make do with his motley crew. I think the fighting conditions in the SW Pacific was probably the worst on earth. Disease, tropical conditions, insects, wildlife and above all, rain, all sapped at the strength and fighting ability of both sides. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

12-17-2005, 07:22 PM	#20
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,283	At Guadalcanal, we usually were out numbered on the ground, air and sea. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

12-18-2005, 02:26 AM	#21
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	YEP!!! __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

12-19-2005, 06:11 PM	#23
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,809	While that may be try, it still illustrates the point that these were outnumbered American commanders that fought through and won. __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

12-19-2005, 06:35 PM	#24
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,051	My ex-father in law was on one of the surviving destroyers during Taffy 3 - I don't remember which one but he hated Admiral Halsey.... He said they got pelted pretty bad.... __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

12-19-2005, 06:47 PM	#25
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,283	The battle of Savo island in Aug 1942 was another example of the IJN not finishing off with a complete victory at hand. After the IJN had swept away the US (and Aussie) cruisers, they had a free hand to wipe out the invasion force still anchored offshore, just 30 minutes of steaming time away. What did the IJN admiral do? He sailed away happy with what he did, not with what he could accomplish. The idiot! Had he took out the transports, the US would have lost Guadalcanal before it even started. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

12-20-2005, 07:00 PM	#26
wmaxt Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,175	Thats kind of my point, the Japanese gave up and retreated a number of times when, had they continued they would have won. The Americans were lucky the Japanese quit, not good in that we beat them, in those situations - not that I'm questioning their courage or ability they didn't give up, the Japanese did, and thats what won the day. Had the Japanese pushed on those occasions we would have been fighting there for another 5 years. wmaxt

12-20-2005, 07:01 PM	#27
Hunter368 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 2,240	The Japanese had great battles early and then bad later. They were very hot and cold, lol. __________________ "Ivan the Terrible or Russian Achilles" Ivan Kozhedub - Hero of the USSR (x3), Order of Lenin (x2), Order of Red Banner (x7), Order of Alexander Nevsky, Order of the Great Patriotic War (x2), Order of the Red Star (x2), 62 kills during 1943-1945

12-20-2005, 09:17 PM	#30
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,283	Japan had the capacity to hold us off till late 1943. After that time, the Allied forces would have had the quantatative and qualitative edge and Japan would be on borrowed time. Once the B29's were available in quantity in summer of 1944, then we had the ways of striking any Japanese force/base in the PTO with impunity. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

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