MIG vs SABRE

Gnomey · 12-12-2007, 05:54 PM

Great story pb!

'Lil'tyger · 12-22-2007, 09:36 AM

i agree Flyboyj!!!!

ppopsie · 12-22-2007, 03:39 PM

I have been on Sabre vs Mig for years. The F-86 is beautiful and graceful but the Mig-15 is so small and cute!

FLYBOYJ · 12-22-2007, 07:00 PM

I have love for both of them as I had to opportunity to work on them and actaully fly in a MiG-15 UTI, but I have to say I always had a yearning desire to get a MiG-15 within "the pipper."

ppopsie · 12-22-2007, 07:12 PM

FLYBOYJ sama,

What was the Mig's quality, or workmanship? I understand the F-86 was manufactured with then highest production technology. Was the Mig easy to maintain?

Wildcat · 12-22-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Seeing how the Canadair Mk VI was the premiere Sabre with consideration given to the Aussie version with the 20mm

Pb brings up an interesting question, which was the better Sabre varient produced, the CAC Avon Sabre or the Canadair version? I ask because my knowledge of early jets is sorely lacking and I have read over the years that each version mentioned claims to be the better of the two. Could someone please enlighten me.

FLYBOYJ · 12-22-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppopsie

FLYBOYJ sama,

What was the Mig's quality, or workmanship? I understand the F-86 was manufactured with then highest production technology. Was the MiG easy to maintain?

The F-86's quality was unsurpassed and I could say the same for Canadair built Sabers. I do know that there were some F-86s built with explosive bolts in the wing root area that caused some stress cracking. With the triple redundant hydraulic system of the F-86 there always seems to be some kind of little hydraulic leak or seep somewhere.

I worked on 2 MiG-15s. One of them I helped assemble and it was from Poland. It was a UTI and was "factory converted" from a single seat version. I think PZL did the mod and if I remember right it was done in 1956. The overall airframe was simple and well built, but the areas where the aircraft was modified had some issues. In the "turtleback" of the aft canopy were numerous clenched rivets, single and double sized rivets, drill starts and tool marks. It looks like a bunch of monkeys did the mod. The 2nd MiG was from China and was basically built like the first MiG without all the defects noted. I just did line maintenance on that one and it was a very easy aircraft to work on. The biggest issue was maintaining the brake system with nitrogen which is typical of all east-block built aircraft.

The MiG-15 was built well but a very simple aircraft. The Soviets basically took a first generation jet aircraft (systems wise) and swept back the wings and called it good. Although both aircraft are very endearing to me, I would always take the F-86 if I was placed in a hypothetical combat situation and I would also give the edge to the Saber as far as quality goes.

FLYBOYJ · 12-22-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Pb brings up an interesting question, which was the better Sabre varient produced, the CAC Avon Sabre or the Canadair version? I ask because my knowledge of early jets is sorely lacking and I have read over the years that each version mentioned claims to be the better of the two. Could someone please enlighten me.

Personally I think the Avon Sabers were the top of the line. I think the Canadiar Mk IVs were better than the F-86F, but in either case I think if flown right and with a little luck the F-86 will maul a MiG-15 9 times out of 10.

pbfoot · 12-22-2007, 09:23 PM

Not that I'm a big numbers guy but I can't seem to find a "side by side "comparison of the 2 , did the CAC version keep the slats. Any how I read the articles included in the link below and there are some great stories the 2nd link being my favorite.the 3rd link has the MK6 numbers
Sabre Jet Classics
Flying The RCAF Sabre: Mark 6
SPAADS HOME PAGE

Mitya · 06-07-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobilar

Despite a loss rate of 10 to 1, by the time of the cease-fire the Communists had nearly 1,000 MIG-15s operational compared with only just over 250 US Sabres some of which were equipped as Fighter-Bombers.

Realy!!!?

FLYBOYJ the rights that is a myth. To read even here: -15
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
, 1952
So to say, a sight from the side.

FLYBOYJ · 06-08-2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitya

Realy!!!?

FLYBOYJ the rights that is a myth. To read even here: -15
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
, 1952
So to say, a sight from the side.

Not sure what you're trying to say but I believe the second post shows total Soviet claims from Korea, showing that over 635+ were claimed by Communist forces. About 630 Sabers rotated through Korea from 1950 - 1953. So every F-86 in Korea was destroyed?!?!?

Kruska · 06-08-2008, 06:51 AM

Hello FLYBOY,

Mitya’s stats shows that from 08.51 - 12.51 a total of 71 F-86 were supposedly destroyed
What do the US stats report about this period, on behalf of employed aircrafts and kills, would be interesting to find out.

From what I have read so far on this subject, I conclude that the Mig-Pilots had no G-suits, no aircon no Cadillac like aircraft. The Mig15’s data’s seem superior to the F-86, the armament was far superior. The quality of the Sabre in contra to the MiG is undisputable.

Personally I find the loss statistic of 792 MiG’s, with a loss of only 76 Sabres-a victory ratio of 10-to-1 indeed very hard to belief – such as Rudel’s Tank killer claims. Especially since there are no records which e.g. show 159 US air aces with an average of 5 aircrafts not to mention Mig’s. Also a total rotation of 630 Sabres would account for 1.25 per pilot or aircraft.

Is this claim based on MiG15 contra F-86 engagements or a total summation of aircraft losses regarding these two types during Korea?

If the far better trained US pilots with a G-suit would have been equipped with the MiG15 would you think that the F-86 would have proofed to be the better aircraft in regards to combat ability?

Regards
Kruska

pbfoot · 06-08-2008, 07:29 AM

the heavier armament on the Mig also had a drawback it had a low rate of fire, giving the Sabre guys that xtra millisecond needed to being avoid nailed.

Kruska · 06-08-2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

the heavier armament on the Mig also had a drawback it had a low rate of fire, giving the Sabre guys that xtra millisecond needed to being avoid nailed.

Hello pbfoot,

Yes certainly true, but on the other hand I wouldn’t want to get hit by a 37mm. But you have a good point there, maybe the MiG’s weren’t able to utilize those cannons in jet to jet combat - which could explain this "outrageous"

kill ratio.

Regards
Kruska

FLYBOYJ · 06-08-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello FLYBOY,

Mitya’s stats shows that from 08.51 - 12.51 a total of 71 F-86 were supposedly destroyed
What do the US stats report about this period, on behalf of employed aircrafts and kills, would be interesting to find out.

I don't know what the actual losses were in that period but it is my belief that during the entire war the US lost just under 100 F-86s. Total there were about 250 lost to all causes and there may be some of those that were actually attributed to combat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

From what I have read so far on this subject, I conclude that the Mig-Pilots had no G-suits, no aircon no Cadillac like aircraft. The Mig15’s data’s seem superior to the F-86, the armament was far superior. The quality of the Sabre in contra to the MiG is undisputable.

Correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

Personally I find the loss statistic of 792 MiG’s, with a loss of only 76 Sabres-a victory ratio of 10-to-1 indeed very hard to belief – such as Rudel’s Tank killer claims. Especially since there are no records which e.g. show 159 US air aces with an average of 5 aircrafts not to mention Mig’s. Also a total rotation of 630 Sabres would account for 1.25 per pilot or aircraft.

Is this claim based on MiG15 contra F-86 engagements or a total summation of aircraft losses regarding these two types during Korea?

I think this is a mix of all MiG operators Soviet, Chinese and Korean. From articles I seen it seems at times the Soviets would like to distance themselves from the performance of their North Korean and Chinese allies, but during the course of battle it was sometimes difficult to ascertain what MiG was from what operator.

As earlier stated, based on the earlier discussion, I'd put the kill-loss ratio to about 6 to 1, and if you went Soviets vs. US, about 2.5 to one, this is based on each sides own loss admittance, but again it seems this information from the Soviet camp was a long time coming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruska

If the far better trained US pilots with a G-suit would have been equipped with the MiG15 would you think that the F-86 would have proofed to be the better aircraft in regards to combat ability?

Regards
Kruska

I still think the F-86 was a better aircraft. Triple redundant hydraulic systems, better environmental system, better built and better egress systems. To me it would seem punching out of a MiG-15 would at least result in some broken bones, and the possibility of severed limbs. i base this also on the size of the cockpit.