Piston engine epitome?

[comiso90]

oh yeah... duh... i'm used to that term being used in context of WW 1 fighters not post ww2 birds

[FLYBOYJ]

More on the La-11....

"Along with the various Yak fighters, the Lavochkin La-9 and La-11 were commonly operated by the North Korean and Chinese Air Forces. Typical of later Soviet designed piston engine fighters, their armament was concentrated in the nose of the aircraft. Performance was generally acceptable by WWII standards, but woefully inadequate when faced with turbojet powered opposition. Much speculation has been engaged in by aviation enthusiasts as to how the late war Soviet fighters would have fared against the fighter aircraft of the western Allies. Well, if Korea is used as an example, the answer to that question is 'miserable'. Mustangs, Corsairs and the F-82 had little difficulty killing these Soviet fighters. Although fast and maneuverable, they proved to quite vulnerable to .50 caliber fire, and could not withstand more than a few hits from 20mm cannon rounds. Moreover, the Soviet style tactics and generally poor level of training only exacerbated the ineffectiveness of these aircraft. Typically, U.N. fighter pilots viewed the Lavochkins and the Yaks as 'meat on the table"

La-11

"First documented combat use of La-11 took place on April 8, 1950, when these fighters shot down an American Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer over the Baltic Sea with all 10 crew lost. Later the same year, La-11 shot down a Lockheed P2V Neptune. By July 1950, La-11 were flying combat air patrol missions over North Korea. The aircraft's main target during the Korean War was the Douglas A-26 Invader night bomber, although numerous skirmishes with North American P-51 Mustangs also took place. Attempts to intercept Boeing B-29 Superfortress bombers proved fruitless. La-11 required 26 minutes to reach B-29's cruise altitude and once there had a speed advantage of only 20 km/h (12 mph) making it easy for the B-29 to evade the attacker in a shallow dive."

Lavochkin La-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

1. I dont know where you got this information from but La-11s NEVER damaged B-29s, the only recip to shoot down a B-29 was a Chinese Yak-9D.

2. During the Korean War the Chinese made no claims while flying the LA-11. The only air to air recip kills claimed by the Chinese was in the Yak-9D.

3. LA-11s were encountered 3 times and a total 8 were shot down by USAF aircraft.

4. I have doubts the Soviet ever flew LA-11s againist B-26. That would of put them in a proximity of UN troops and risked capture.

5. This information comes from ACIG a very accurate and unbiased database that tracks air to air combat since the WW2.

5. Last first, I know ACIG, see earlier thread on this forum that posted an ACIG paper about Korea co-authored by me. Nonetheless, IME their Korean War stuff is not all that accurate and unbiased. I gave input to some things but found the main authors wanted to give all benefit of the doubt and then some to Soviet claims in Korea. I would not recommend taking those lists too literally (certainly for Korea, for other wars they cover I'm personally cautious, but I don't know for sure).

1. I got it from the daily summaries and mission reports of the Far East Air Force, cross referenced to Soviet accounts of their operations. The night of December 23-24 1951, 2 19th BG B-29's were damaged by fighters while attacking Uiju airfield. One was 44-70012. The Soviet night unit at the time, 351st Fighter Regiment, was still operating solely La-11's; it started MiG-15 night ops during 1952. The 351st's La-11's claimed just 1 B-29 damaged during their tour AFAIK.

Yes, the only outright shoot down of a B-29 by a prop in the Korean War proper was 19th BG's 44-69866, downed by a pair of North Korean (Korean People's Armed Forces Air Corps, KPAFAC) Yak-9's July 12 1950. IOW ACIG is correct on this despite having it for some reason on a Chinese list, and the Yak-9 variant is wrong. The KPA had a few wood winged Yak-9M's still on hand on the eve of the war, inherited from Soviet occupation units, but the bulk of the force and probably all Yak's encountered in combat in the first phase of the war (ie. prior to Soviet/Chinese intervention in Nov 1950) were all metal postwar production Yak-9P's (Russian sources suggest this but captured but never translated NK records, maintenance and flight logs etc. from just pre war and very early war, show it explicitly). NK accounts credit this victory to their leading pilot, Kim Gi Ok.

Also though, RB-29 44-61815 of the 91st Strategic Recon Sdn which was based in Japan and flew recon Korea and elsewhere in the Far East during the war (unit and particular plane both), was downed by Soviet La-11's near the Soviet far east coast Oct 7 1952. It's usually considered "cold war" rather than Korean War. La-11's also downed a USN PB4Y-2 just before the KW, in the Baltic Sea.

2. Nov 30 1951, 4th FIW F-86's attacked a formation of PLAAF 8th Bomber Division Tu-2's escorted by 2nd Fighter Division La-11's. They claimed 9 and 3 (understandably mis-ID'ed the latter as La-9's), plus a MiG-15 which came to the aid of the prop formation. Soviet and Chinese accounts say 6 and 4 respectively Tu-2's, though agree 3 La-11's were lost, plus a MiG-15. The La-11 pilot Wang Tianbao claimed an F-86, and although none were downed Maj. Winton Marshall's plane was hit in the canopy by a 23mm from one of the Lavochkins (see "Red Wings Over the Yalu" by Zhang and "Crimson Sky" by Bruning pg 177 for the two sides of this, US records confirm damage to canopy and left wing of 50-680)

3. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but AFAIK Nov 30 '51 was the only daylight combat with La-11's in the KW proper. The 3 June 20 1952 claims by F-86's were North Korean La-9's per Soviet accounts. The 3 June 1950 credits of La-7's to F-82's and and F-51 were also certainly mis-ID'ed Yak-11's (same source as for Yak variants).

4. It's covered in considerable detail in various Russian sources, and a number of their claims correspond to night fighter attacks or losses involving B-26's. These were well inside NK where B-26's conducted night interdiction, not over the frontlines. For example a 351st La-11 first claimed a B-26 Oct 12 1951; a mission report of the 3rd Bomb Wing (Light) records an attack by an enemy night fighter at about the same time, but the B-26 was undamaged. November 16 kill credit; B-26 44-35579 was hit in the wing while being attacked, the crew believed, simultaneously by a night fighter and AA while coned in searchlights. The disappearances of RB-26 44-35668 May 15 '52 and B-26 44-35844 June 10 correspond to La-11 claims, general time and place as well as date. There are other Soviet La-11 claims which might match losses, but not certain IMO.

Joe Brennan

[syscom3]

Good info Joe.

Thanks.

[FLYBOYJ]

Good Info - but I disagree with some of the Russian sources as if you tally up some of their claims they exceed the actual amounts of aircraft that were in theater (Especially true for the F-80). Again I doubt Soviet pilots were flying La-11 to intercept B-26s. They were there for one thing - fly Mig-15s. Here a breakdown of volunteer units in Korea and there were little La-11s when compared to the Mig-15.

Appendix 32

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Good Info - but I disagree with some of the Russian sources as if you tally up some of their claims they exceed the actual amounts of aircraft that were in theater (Especially true for the F-80). Again I doubt Soviet pilots were flying La-11 to intercept B-26s. They were there for one thing - fly Mig-15s. Here a breakdown of volunteer units in Korea and there were little La-11s when compared to the Mig-15.

I didn't say Soviet claims in Korea were all correct, I'm not relying on them. The examples I gave are specific 351st Regiment (La-11 equipped night unit) claims that match encounters or losses in US original records not only the same date, but same general time and place.

The linked list is of so called Chinese Volunteer units, really just regular units of the PLAAF (it's from Volkovskiy "The War in Korea"; it says it includes NK units but doesn't list any, though there were several). Note the list includes 2nd Fighter Division, the Chinese La-11's encountered Nov 30 '51. But the 351st Fighter Regiment, La-11 night fighters, was Soviet AF, not Chinese. Most of the Communist air opposition from Nov 1950 until 1953, when the Chinese and NK's became an actual majority, was regular units of the Soviet AF's (VVS tactical, PVO air defence, and VMF landbased naval), again just labelled "volunteer". The 351st Regiment was the only La-11 unit among the Soviet units as the 2nd FAD was among the Chinese, but the 351st had some verifiable victories while flying the La-11 (at night in Korea, plus a handful against Nationalist Chinese a/c before the KW that can be verified), and suffered no La-11 combat losses per Soviet accounts, nor did the US claim any of the 351st's, ie Soviet piloted, La-11's.

My sources on 351st and its specific claims are Russian language published and archival, non-internet, but for those of the 'links=truth' persuasion here's a translation (by same guy who translated the Volkovskiy excerpts, Cookie Sewell) of a 1993 Russian magazine article about their night fighter ops (I believe it has some errors, and info since updated by the same author Igor Seidov, but it's a reasonable overview).
Shield of the Night

Joe

[FLYBOYJ]

Good information, but I think it still boils down to the La-11, while being a good recip aircraft was a minimal impact during the Korean War. I read it took the La-11 25 minutes to reach the B-29s altitude and while there the B-29 could easily accelerate away from the La-11 in a shallow dive.

I will concede there could of been B-26 kills by the La-11 but I still question Soviet operation of these aircraft, it conflicts with the standing order directly from Stalin that being the totally secretary of Soviet pilots serving over Korea.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

1. Good information, but I think it still boils down to the La-11, while being a good recip aircraft was a minimal impact during the Korean War. I read it took the La-11 25 minutes to reach the B-29s altitude and while there the B-29 could easily accelerate away from the La-11 in a shallow dive.

2. I will concede there could of been B-26 kills by the La-11 but I still question Soviet operation of these aircraft....

I certainly agree the La-11 had minimal impact on the big picture of the Korean War, as all prop air-air combat did, really.

1. As I said not all of "Shield" and other Russian accounts is correct, or doesn't reflect both sides. It and other Soviet side accounts say B-29's were diving and pulling away from Lavochkins, but in fact from their mission reports the B-29's usually only went around 230-250mph true on bomb runs (at usually 19-24k ft at that time), and had to fly a predictable arc to have SHORAN gear get them over a target at night, could only evade after bombs away. It was clearly harder to do wild boar interception against a B-29 w/ an La-11 than a MiG-15 but not easy or impossible with either. The 351st (and some attached pilots from Soviet day units) scored 8 (real) night victories against B-29's from June 52 to Jan 53 with MiG's, but its successor unit the 298th scored none from Feb-July '53. I believe one factor in the 351st's quick success with the MiG was the time it spent building up skill with Lavochkins, though only one marginal success v B-29's December 23 '51; the 298th never built up enough skill despite using MiG's from the start (though there were other factors of course, US tactics and ECM, better Soviet GCI radar in '52, etc).

2. Here's a translation/transcription of a page from Soviet archives, some columns got a little scrambled getting into Word but the general idea should be clear. It can be seen from other sources these are some of the 351st's claims. Note that times and places are given, and other sources also give names of the claiming pilots. For example the Nov 16 claim was by Kapt PF Dushin a sdn CO in the 351st. The places are Russian transliterations of Korean place names, but when deciphered are all pretty far north, again 16 Nov, near Dandong means almost on the Yalu. Of these 5, the first two are attacks recorded by B-26's which weren't lost, the last two correspond to B-26 disappearances, and the March 12 one I can't find in US records, yet anyway. So with specific claims by specific Soviet pilots, I don't know why we'd "doubt" they were Soviet, or why we'd concede disappearances were caused by La-11's (as opposed to anything else) unless we believed these were real claims by the people who say they claimed them: the Soviet AF. Of course all such docs *were* pretty secret for a long time.

503. 12 Oct 51 B—26 75 km South— Aircraft caught on fire and crashed into the sea
1918 hrs west of Andun. The fate of the pilot is unknown.

504. 16 Nov 51 B—26 Southeast of Dandong Aircraft crashed into the sea.
1927 hrs The fate of the pilot is unknown.

505 12 Mar 52 B—26 Cherengvan Aircraft was shot down, crashed 25—30 km
0130 hrs northeast of Cherengvan.The fate of the pilot is unknown.

506. 15 May 52 B—26 Cherengvan Aircraft crashed and exploded 10 km south—
2000 hrs east of Sensen. A parachutist landed 10—15
km southeast of Sensen. Further fate of the
pilot is unknown.

507. 5 Jun 52 B—26 Tehjsyu Aircraft landed on the water 10—15 km
2245 hrs southeast of Sinbi—to Island
Immediately after the landing enemy
cutters were sighted approaching the
B—26 landing site.

Joe

[FLYBOYJ]

Great info Joe! BTW I had an uncle who flew in the early portion of the Korean War in B-29s (He was a radio operator). He survived an attack by flak and Migs during a daylight mission but his aircraft crashed on landing in Japan.

In 1954 he flew ferret missions in B-50s.

"So with specific claims by specific Soviet pilots, I don't know why we'd "doubt" they were Soviet, or why we'd concede disappearances were caused by La-11's (as opposed to anything else) unless we believed these were real claims by the people who say they claimed them: the Soviet AF. Of course all such docs *were* pretty secret for a long time."

During that period UN forces were close to the Yalu, again I don't think the Soviets would of risked having one of their pilots being captured, especially the incident around Dandog.

It's funny though - many Soviet pilots have came foward after Korea to tell about their service over North Korea. If the La-11 shot down any B-26s or if any of the Soviet pilots flew La-11s I would think by now something would of been said...

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

It's funny though - many Soviet pilots have came foward after Korea to tell about their service over North Korea. If the La-11 shot down any B-26s or if any of the Soviet pilots flew La-11s I would think by now something would of been said...

I guess we're just belaboring this now, but I don't get your point. I'm showing you original Soviet records saying they made those specific claims...it's the most original source you can get.

But plenty, relative to the small topic, has been said in print about the Soviet 351st Regiment's ops in China and Korea. Just most of it is in the Russian language only (but the article translation linked above is an exception; also the book "With the Yanks in Korea Vol 1" by Cull and Newton mentions the 351st's ops a bit using Russian sources). Some of Seidov's later articles, again Russian only, on Soviet night ops rely heavily one first hand pilot accounts as well as declassified Soviet records. I think your implication that "nothing has been said" about Soviet Korean War La-11 ops, is just not correct.

The only thing I'm adding here which isn't in print (AFAIK) is correlating specific La-11 claims to US primary source records, which shows that some, not all, of the claims were apparently valid.

Joe

[FLYBOYJ]

Maybe mis-understood there, my point is why specific soviet pilots who flew these La-11s have not come foward. We know the identities of dozens of Soviet Mig-15 drivers who give specific accounts of their tour in Korea. You show data from the 351st, but my question, who were the pilots?

[Smokey]

Of the aircraft that flew, surely the Goodyear F2G - 1D super corsair is a contender for best piston engine singleseat fighter.



Super Corsair F2G-1D [www.orizzle.com]

Of those that didn't fly, the forward swept wing Heinkel P.1076 may have been pretty impressive



Heinkel He P.1076 Luft Art Images by Andreas Otte

[Matt308]

Likely maneauverable with inherent instability of forward swept wings, but probably sacrificed speed.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by Smokey

Of the aircraft that flew, surely the Goodyear F2G - 1D super corsair is a contender for best piston engine singleseat fighter.



Super Corsair F2G-1D [www.orizzle.com]

Of those that didn't fly, the forward swept wing Heinkel P.1076 may have been pretty impressive



Heinkel He P.1076 Luft Art Images by Andreas Otte

Wow awesome pics.. thanks

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Maybe mis-understood there, my point is why specific soviet pilots who flew these La-11s have not come foward. We know the identities of dozens of Soviet Mig-15 drivers who give specific accounts of their tour in Korea. You show data from the 351st, but my question, who were the pilots?

Because you (or I, or anyone) haven't read about something doesn't mean it hasn't been written about. The identity of 351st La-11 pilots certainly has been; I already posted a link to a translation of a Russian article with lots of names of 351st pilots. And the original Soviet records give all kinds of additional detail, photo's etc of the same men, no reasonable doubt who they were.

Again a published English source is here:
Shield of the Night
and here's a picture of the most famous 351st pilot, Anatoliy Karelin, only officially credited Soviet night ace in Korea, in his La-11. He made one claim in the La-11, apparently not officially recognized by the Soviets, yet OTOH possibly corresponding to a real B-26 loss, April 4 1952. His 5 official victories were all B-29's claimed in the MiG-15, some confirmed in US records.


Joe