Today's greatest Ace?

Wildcat · 11-08-2007, 05:12 PM

Tread lighty dude. People around here have got more respect for Plan_D than some newbie called Wanker. I suspect a severve anal reaming is close at hand.....

FLYBOYJ · 11-08-2007, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanker1967

all right then

stop whining you powerty striken, sexualy opressed football holigan.... you fvcked up and wrote loads of crab....

learn to live with it

Evidently Chernobyl fall out was abundant in your part of the world - 3 posts and you've proven you're either retarded, brain dead or both - you've got 2 strikes dumbass and some time off - sit in the corner with a dunce cap and decide if you really want to be here....

@sshole..........

The Basket · 11-09-2007, 12:38 AM

The Colonel Toon thing is interesting. The pilot was killed on a particular day so just ask the Vietnamese which pilots were KIA on that day flying a Fresco, who was experienced and you have your Colonel Toon.

or is that too easy?

I guess the pilot could have been Soviet or War Pac so would have been unknown to the Vietnamese. His true identity would have to be covered up. It would make sense for the Soviets to get involved as they could learn American tactics and how to combat them.

JoeB · 11-09-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Basket

The Colonel Toon thing is interesting. The pilot was killed on a particular day so just ask the Vietnamese which pilots were KIA on that day flying a Fresco, who was experienced and you have your Colonel Toon.

or is that too easy?

That action occurred May 10, 1972. The USAF credited pilots with 3 victories over MiG-21's that day for 2 losses of F-4's. The USN credited a MiG-21 and 7 MiG-17's without loss, 3 of the MiG-17's by Cunningham and Driscoll.

A Soviet GRU (military intel) account of the war written in 1977 and declassified later has a chronology of the air war which says the VPAF claimed 7 F-4's that day for the loss of 2 MiG-21's a MiG-19 and 2 MiG-17's, with one of the MiG-17 pilots killed.

Istvan Toperczer's books "Air War Over North Vietnam" and "MiG-17 and MiG-19 Units of the Vietnam War" are closely based on the VPAF official history. That account is the same, two MiG-17's lost that day, with the two MiG-17 pilots named as Nguyen Van Tho and Nguyen Hang, latter claimed to have been gunned by the F-4's in his parachute and killed (USN F-4's of course had no integral gun, and while they could carry Mk.4 20mm pods, didn't at the stage of the war AFAIK). He notes no mention of a Tomb (or Toon) in Vietnamese accounts, no Colonel among their pilots, and 'Tomb' isn't a Vietnamese name nor does it sound close to any.

I'd like to see actual Vietnamese records (I guess I have to learn Vietnamese

) before saying 'that's what happened', 2 MiG-17's only, but seems to be what they say happened. 'Col Tomb' or Toon or whatever is some garbling that became a sea story, I think that's fairly clear.

On non-Vietnamese pilots fighting with VPAF there's real evidence of that wrt North Koreans, though none specifically in this combat or necessarily in the 1972 period. The Soviet account mentioned above doesn't say anything about foreign pilots though. I'd also note that Soviet instructors in for example Egypt in 1956 (during the Anglo-French strikes on the Egyptian AF), and North Korean prop fighter units in Korea (separately from the well documented extensive involvement of Soviet AF MiG-15 units in that war) have told stories of their own missions and victories which aren't backed up by anything else. Also in Korea even for the MiG units, particular pilots have told stories like 'I met this captured US pilot, he told me he flew for Luftwaffe in WWII' etc and other wild stuff not corroborated by declassed official accounts (the US pilot in question crashed at sea, his recovered ID card was merely shown to Soviet MiG pilots most said, but one had come up with this tall tale based on the incident). These stories are often printed in Russian language publications like air enthusiast magazines, with the authors often responsibly noting they've no proof beside the first hand story, but then when it shows up in English on the web it's 'the Russians say'. So I'd take the Russian 'Vietnam ace' with a grain of salt. What's the original source?

Joe

FLYBOYJ · 11-09-2007, 11:45 AM

Joe, I have suspicions about the Soviet GRU report because during that period you had "College Eye" off shore during many of these engagements. I met guys who flew 121s as well as F-4s and most of the time the operators in the "eye" aircraft knew the bogeys, witnessed the engagement and were able to verify the kill.

F-4s gunning a guy in his parachute? Nonsense!

As far as Col Toon? I think it was a Russian but we may never know....

FLYBOYJ · 11-09-2007, 11:51 AM

I think this is were we get the Russian guy from...

Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page

renrich · 11-09-2007, 02:23 PM

I agree Flyboy that the Toon guy was probably not Vietnamese but some other nationality that no one is going to admit to. What nonsense about F4s gunning a pilot in a parachute. I have read of and seen Cunningham's description of that fight on numerous occasions and it seems the Mig 17's pilot was highly skilled. Interesting what has happened to Cunningham since this thread was started!

JoeB · 11-09-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I think this is were we get the Russian guy from...

So I figured. And I believe Safarik read that somewhere, he's a reasonable guy. He's Czech I think and I know there are interesting articles about Soviet stuff in Czech as well as Ukranian and Russian aviation magazines so something like that probably. I meant where it came from *originally*. I'll look into it more.

On Tomb/Toon if I were a betting man I'd bet again it's garbled reference from some SIGINT intercept, then took on a life of its own, and there never was any Col. Tomb. An earlier cut and paste in this thread also mentioned that Marshall Michel, author of 'Clashes' mainly about USAF air combat in Vietnam and its problems, and RF-4 pilot himself, doesn't believe there was a Col Tomb either. If he was Vietnamese, there's no good explanation why the Vietnamese don't celebrate him like their other claimed aces. Anyone can say 'Soviet' but where's any evidence? By 1972 the VPAF had 7 years of its own combat experience, more successfully than any other major MiG force in the Cold War, including the Soviets in Korea and their documented disastrous combat v the Israeli's during the War of Attrition. And those other once sensitive Soviet involvements are declassified, but this one is the perfect secret... It would just be very convenient if the episode was explained by Soviet pilots that late in the war. And where does the Col Tomb story actually come from? nobody seems to know that, it's not an official USN claim.

I mentioned NK pilots in Vietnam, and how there's actual evidence for that. I went back and checked the article: "A Debt of Blood" by James Zumwault in USNI Proceedings Nov 2001. The NK foreign minister visited Vietnam and stopped at a cemetary with 14 North Korean graves. Vietnamese officials told Zumwalt at least some were pilots who flew MiG-17's together with the VPAF but this only for a relatively brief period in 1967, Vietnamese photo's showed Vietnamese pilots thanking their Korean comrades and saying goodbye, in 1967.

Joe

Matt308 · 11-11-2007, 12:35 AM

Interesting and thought provoking. Good post JoeB.

FLYBOYJ · 11-11-2007, 07:28 AM

Yes indeed, all very interesting....

It would not surprise me to learn that North Korean pilots did fly with the VNAF during the periods stated. Where I have suspicions relating their actions to the 1972 Cunningham engagement was the tactics used by the pilot in question and the seemingly "independence" he had of ground controllers. From what I always read the NVAF strictly controlled the Mig-21s and used the Mig-17 as sought of a "sniper," coming into a fight when an enemy force was at a disadvantage (Bomb laden F-105s for example). In many of the recorded engagements I've read, it seems that the only times the NVAF were on their own was when they were being hunted at their disadvantage and at that point they would run like hell. Dan Cherry spoke of this during a CJAA meeting at Tinker AFB several years ago and this also seems the case in the old Drendel publication "And Kill Migs." The guy Cunningham fought seemed to be "independent" thus surfacing the rumours of a Russian or maybe even some other East Block pilot. In reading information about the North Korean AF, I wold seriously doubt that an exchange or instructor pilot would of engaged with such unorthodox tactics, but again my opinion.....

fer-de-lance · 11-11-2007, 07:47 PM

Hard to argue against the Israeli aces - especially the ones who scored up close with DEFA cannons.

If the Fleet Air Arm pilots in the Falklands gets an "honorable mention", then recon and ELINT pilots who turn the tables on interceptors and score "double kills" should get one too.

The "Shao-lin" Monastery of Kung-fu fame is located on the top of Song-shan. On one night mission (Nov. 19, 1960), an enterprising Chinese Nationalist RB-69A pilot (Maj. Tai, Shu-ching) from the 34th "Bat" ELINT squadron caused two PLAAF nightfighter to fly into terrain - one of them just below the summit of Song-shan (missing the monastery above). The PLAAF 25th Air Division, 74th regiment lost two Tu-2P (ironically also code-named "Bat" by NATO) which were specially modified to carry the RP-5 AI radar. Both sets of 4-man crew were also lost. (A month later, another RB-69A pilot, Maj. Li, Te-feng, led a pursuing MiG-17PF from the PLAAF 9th Air Division into the Zhijing Mountains in Guangdong Province and caused it to slam into one of the peaks in the dark. Probably could have gotten more but the "Crows" on the RB-69A heard the PLAAF GCI called off the other MiG-17PF's).

Col. "Gimo" Yang, Shi-chu, later to gain fame as the commander of the Chinese Nationalist 35th "Black Cat" U-2 squadron also caused the loss of two PLAAF interceptors. This happened on April 18th, 1958 when Yang and a wingman from the 12th Tactical Recon Squadron on a photo recon mission in RF-84F were intercepted by two MiG-17F from the PLAAF 9th Air Division, 27th Regiment. Gimo led the PLAAF interceptors in a dangerous low level chase though the hills before eluding them. The two hapless MiG drivers spent a little too long in afterburner and ended up ejecting when their fuel ran out before they could reach their base at Xin-cheng.

skhm · 02-12-2008, 12:39 AM

Cool list of air aces posted by les, although I think (technically) incomplete. The U.S. awards "ace" status not only to pilots, but also to backseaters (such as RIO's in F-14's for example.) So, by that definition, Willy "Irish" Driscoll ("Duke" Cunningham's backseater) is also technically listed as an American ace. Kudos to les for a great list, and I realize it is a very technical point, since most people list only pilots, but it is a valid point I think. I seem to recall that Robin Olds (who flew in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) got 4 kills, but that his backseater (I can't remember his name) actually had 5 kills as well (4 under Olds and 1 under another pilot.)
Again, don't mean to be a technical *bleep* splitting hairs and all, but just something to keep in mind when listing aces.

flojo · 02-19-2008, 08:59 AM

Interesting point with the backseaters. I think there is also a number of Israeli navigators who earned back seat ace status and these should of course also be included (Mainly from F4E crews)

ezlead · 02-19-2008, 12:43 PM

TODAY's greatest Ace would have to be Epstein.
Last year I would have picked Robin Olds.
3 wars 17 kills. P-38's and P-51's vs 109's and 190's up to F-4's vs Migs.
In any 'dogfight' it's the driver and Olds was one He** of a driver.
Olds got into a lot of trouble during his career bucking heads with the Higher Ups. Red Flag,Top Gun and every military fighter having a gun can somewhat be attributed to Olds. He wasn't afraid to get what he wanted for his pilots.

fer-de-lance · 02-27-2008, 02:53 PM

Old's WSO in his MiG-killing missions were:

1st Lt. Charles Clifton (Jan. 2nd, 1967, MiG-21 "Operation Bolo")
1st. Lt. William D. Lafever(May 2nd, 1967, MiG-21)
1st LT Stephen Croker (May 20th, 1967, 2 MiG-17)

Capt. Jeffrey Feinstein was the only WSO other than DeBellevue who was credited with 5 victories in Vietnam (April - October 1972, with four different pilots, Maj. Dan Cherry, Capt. Bruce Leonard, Lt. Col. Carl Baily[2] and Lt Col Curtis Westphal ).