 | Your favorite post-war aircraft| Post-War Discuss Your favorite post-war aircraft in the Other Eras forums; Cool!... |
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09-24-2005, 04:28 PM
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#166 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 20
| Cool! 
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"Let us not be too critical of our equipment. It shoots the enemy down in flames and brings most of us home." Lt. Cmdr. James Flatley commander of VF-10 | 
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09-24-2005, 05:56 PM
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#167 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,878
| Not for the first time I may be bucking the trend but I have always thought that the MiG21 was better than the Starfighter.
There is no doubting that the F104 is fast and climbed well but those small wings and high wing loading must have done its maneuverability no good at all.
I don't have any first hand experience with these but have read a fair bit on the MiG 21 and a bit on the F104. I admit also to have never reading anything about flaming out problems on the MiG 21. I am not saying that it didn't happen, but that isn't a unique problem in jets of that era.
Nearly all the articles that I have read praise the handling of the MiG21 and I find it hard to believe that it could be that bad considering the number of countries that bought it. India comes to mind here as its one of the few countries at that time that politically could have purchased anything from any country.
As for ease of handling, the F104 was no walk in the park and the accident rates in Europe were pretty high. I think its fair to say that all the early Mach 2 fighters were hot ships with the risks that went with it.
What sorts the reality from the theory is actual combat. As far as I am aware the only time the two met in Air to Air combat was in the 1971 Indian / Pakistani conflict. Both air-forces are well trained and were equipped with planes of similar potency.
The planes met in combat four times, not a lot I admit but facts are facts and the F104 lost on every occasion. The Pakistani pilots were experienced and senior pilots so it wasn't down to a lack of quality. It should also be noted that some of the Pakistani Pilots had flown the MiG 21 when acting as instructors in foreign air-forces so they certainly knew what they were up against . On this theme, Pakistan had been offered the MiG 21 before the war (albeit the early MiG21f) but decided to go for the Mirage instead. I don't know if they flew MiG 21's as part of the evaluation, but its fair to assume that they would have been given detailed briefings as a minimum by Russia as part of the offer.
Post conflict the Pakistani Air-force admitted that the MiG 21 had proved that it could easily out manoeuvre the F104. Also that the F104 was no faster at low altitude there being a couple of situations where the 104 was behind the MiG 21 but couldn't catch it. In September 1970 the US Government offered the Pakistani Air-force a package of supplies including additional F104's but this was turned down as the decision had been taken to phase out the F104 in favour of the Mirage.
As ever any comments welcome.
As an aside, my favourite early Mach 2 fighter would be the SAAB Draken. One of the best planes that never sold. | |
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09-24-2005, 09:31 PM
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#168 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,584
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Glider Not for the first time I may be bucking the trend but I have always thought that the MiG21 was better than the Starfighter.
There is no doubting that the F104 is fast and climbed well but those small wings and high wing loading must have done its maneuverability no good at all.
I don't have any first hand experience with these but have read a fair bit on the MiG 21 and a bit on the F104. I admit also to have never reading anything about flaming out problems on the MiG 21. I am not saying that it didn't happen, but that isn't a unique problem in jets of that era.
Nearly all the articles that I have read praise the handling of the MiG21 and I find it hard to believe that it could be that bad considering the number of countries that bought it. India comes to mind here as its one of the few countries at that time that politically could have purchased anything from any country.
As for ease of handling, the F104 was no walk in the park and the accident rates in Europe were pretty high. I think its fair to say that all the early Mach 2 fighters were hot ships with the risks that went with it.
What sorts the reality from the theory is actual combat. As far as I am aware the only time the two met in Air to Air combat was in the 1971 Indian / Pakistani conflict. Both air-forces are well trained and were equipped with planes of similar potency.
The planes met in combat four times, not a lot I admit but facts are facts and the F104 lost on every occasion. The Pakistani pilots were experienced and senior pilots so it wasn't down to a lack of quality. It should also be noted that some of the Pakistani Pilots had flown the MiG 21 when acting as instructors in foreign air-forces so they certainly knew what they were up against . On this theme, Pakistan had been offered the MiG 21 before the war (albeit the early MiG21f) but decided to go for the Mirage instead. I don't know if they flew MiG 21's as part of the evaluation, but its fair to assume that they would have been given detailed briefings as a minimum by Russia as part of the offer.
Post conflict the Pakistani Air-force admitted that the MiG 21 had proved that it could easily out manoeuvre the F104. Also that the F104 was no faster at low altitude there being a couple of situations where the 104 was behind the MiG 21 but couldn't catch it. In September 1970 the US Government offered the Pakistani Air-force a package of supplies including additional F104's but this was turned down as the decision had been taken to phase out the F104 in favour of the Mirage.
As ever any comments welcome.
As an aside, my favourite early Mach 2 fighter would be the SAAB Draken. One of the best planes that never sold. | As much as I like the F-104, I have to agree!
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | 
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09-25-2005, 03:13 AM
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#169 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,878
| Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement. | |
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09-25-2005, 07:00 AM
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#170 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country:  | Nice!  He took him out with the .50's?
__________________  with my one last gaping breath id apologise for bleeding on your shirt... | |
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09-25-2005, 07:50 AM
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#171 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:  | I might be wrong here but wasn't most of the air to air kills in Korea by guns?
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-25-2005, 10:22 AM
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#172 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,584
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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet I might be wrong here but wasn't most of the air to air kills in Korea by guns? | Correct, F-86s carried no missles Quote: |
Originally Posted by Glider Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement. | During the 71' war, Pakistan used the Saber well aganist many of the IAF fighters.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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09-25-2005, 10:28 AM
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#173 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,878
| Agreed, but I bet he never thought that he would get a Mig 21. | |
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09-25-2005, 10:38 AM
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#174 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,880
Country: | All comes down to piloting skills. Even a couple Phillipine pilots managed to down a couple of Zeros with P-26s! With the right conditions and circumstances, it can happen.
__________________  http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
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09-25-2005, 10:44 AM
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#175 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,584
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Originally Posted by Glider Agreed, but I bet he never thought that he would get a Mig 21. | Neither did the guy in the Mig-21! 
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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09-25-2005, 01:20 PM
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#176 | | World Traveler
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK
Posts: 11,751
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Glider Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement. | That is pretty amazing that he did get a Mig-21 with an F-86! Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Neither did the guy in the Mig-21! | I'm sure he didn't!
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09-25-2005, 01:33 PM
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#177 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by evangilder All comes down to piloting skills. Even a couple Phillipine pilots managed to down a couple of Zeros with P-26s! With the right conditions and circumstances, it can happen. | Agreed 100% with you there. Sometimes man can out perform the machine. Just sometimes. 
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-25-2005, 01:38 PM
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#178 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,880
Country: | Yep, and sometimes if the pilot of the superior aircraft does not look at the inferior plane as a threat, well, he's hitting the silk.
__________________ http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
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09-25-2005, 02:18 PM
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#179 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Agreed. Underestimating your opponant has done more than eneogh of its share of pilots in.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-25-2005, 04:13 PM
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#180 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 20
| Interesting.
India has officially claimed that in the 1972 war its MiG-21 had only 3 encounters with the F-104 and claimed 4 kills. With a total claim of nine F-104 Kills for the whole war, and that the total number of MiG-21 kills were 6 out of a total of 18 Air to Air kills and that of the 6 MiG's
lost only 1 was in Air to Air combat with the enemy but 1 shot down by another MiG-21 with the rest lost to ground fire.
Official PAF records show 3 F-104 losses total, one to ground fire.
In the IAF accounts it was stated that the first two fights each claimed one Starfighter both of them on Ground Attack Runs when shot down, the first at 100 feet above the Ocean surface
The last encounter took place at less than 1600 feet down to 150 ft and that these two kills were aircraft on loan from Jordan,possibly flown by Jordanian pilots who fired a sidewinder
in a head on panic attack.
The US provided only 12 F- 104 A's and Jordan loaned 10 F-104 A's still in desert camouflage during the war. By that time the IAF had built 100+ MiG's plus the ones provided by the USSR.
Five full MiG-21 Squadrons in the West and Three in the East. While the PAF had 1 F-104 squadron in total it being located in the West.
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"Let us not be too critical of our equipment. It shoots the enemy down in flames and brings most of us home." Lt. Cmdr. James Flatley commander of VF-10 | |
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