Your favorite post-war aircraft

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks! I saw a photo of him at the USAF Test Pilot school at Edwards AFB...

[evangilder]

Good stuff, Joe.

[plan_D]

It was the P.1A it super-cruised but was not something the operational Lightnings could achieve. The P.1A was not yet called the Lightning, this was given to the P.1B, and the super-cruise was achieved with Siddeley Sapphire engines. It did achieve so on August 11th 1954, it's first flight was August 4th of the same year.

The P.1B first flew on April 4th 1957 with Avon turbojets with a crude after-burning system. The P.1B first exceeded Mach 2 on 25th November 1958 while under the name Lightning.

My father worked on 11 Sqdn. at RAF Binbrook in the early 70s, pbfoot, and he scrambled Lightnings on many occasions. He says achieving a scramble from bell to take off under two minutes was easy.

Time to operational altitude (40,000 feet), speed (Mach 0.87) and direction was two minutes. The Lightning T.55 was the old T.5 trainer from RAF service sold to Saudi Arabia.

It had a combat radius of 400 miles, more than enough for interception duties on the frontline. It achieved 50,000 feet in one minute, and could achieve a greater thrust to weight ratio at some point during it's climb.

The F-101 couldn't achieve super-cruise, in fact, the F-101 was an escort fighter and was never expected to be fast. It only achieved Mach 1.87 ...

[pbfoot]

what i'm trying to say from bells klaxon siren or buzzer 5 minutes from the alert to altitude which is probably about 35000 ft out the barn doors and to best operating altitude for type of a/c ....as for the barrier without burners that i gleaned from conversations with the crews ....the 101's were never used as an escort fighter that i'm aware of but either intercepter or recce.... the number of climb rate is most often stated as initial climb rate which peters out as you climb the 101 initial climb rate was 49780/fpm

[plan_D]

From the bell to altitude, the Lightning would achieve it's operational rate in about four minutes. This would be from bell to 44,000 feet, direction and Mach 0.87 (cruise).

While I do not know of the operational usage of the F-101. I do know it was designed as a long range escort fighter. It was required to escort the B-36 and while the XF-88 project was almost cancelled, the Korean war showed the B-29 urgently needed an escort as it was lacking. The USAF told McDonald Douglas to quickly produce the escort fighter. The F-101A and F-101C were used in the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing. The F-101B was the interceptor variant of the F-101 and was, in U.S service, with the 60th Fighter Interceptor Squadron when first introduced.

Canada received 66 F-101s, which were a mixture of the F (trainer) and B (interceptor) variant. From your point, as a Canadian, all F-101s were interceptors.

I won't comment on the climb rate of the F-101 as I have yet to read a crediable source on the subject. On the internet sources range from 17,000 feet per minute to 60,000 feet per minute.

You'll have to provide more than "war stories" as proof that the F-101 can super-cruise, sorry.

:edit: The trainer was the TF-101B in U.S service. The F-101F was the modified F-101B for Canadian use. The TF-101F was the TF-101B modified for Canadian service. The Canadians designated the F-101F the CF-101B and the TF-101F was the CF-101F.

[pbfoot]

My father worked on 11 Sqdn. at RAF Binbrook in the early 70s, pbfoot, and he scrambled Lightnings on many occasions. He says achieving a scramble from bell to take off under two minutes was easy.

not to ne a smart ass but are your war stories any different then mine my phone rang in sync with the buzzer with 416 and 409 sqns with 410 and 425 thrown in occasionaly with a seasoning of 106s from the us

[plan_D]

Your "war stories" state that the F-101 can super-cruise. Such a claim would be documented and I've never seen it. The time from bell to altitude can be made with a little usage of intelligence when combining documented evidence and my father's numbers stated.

It is recorded that from brakes off to operational the F.6 Lightning could achieve 44,000 feet and Mach 0.87 as well as the right direct in just over two minutes.

My father says they could have the Lightnings off the ground in under two minutes. Which is easily believable to anyone that is willing to be reasonable. A remarkably simple calculation would predict that the Lightning would be at it's operational direction, height and altitude from bell in around four minutes.

The story of the F-101 being capable of super-cruise would certainly be available to me from either the internet or this book I have The encyclopedia of World Air Power by Bill Gunston. There's no mention of super-cruise in the F-101 information, while the Lightning has a shorter mention in the book yet it mentions the P.1A prototype achieved supercruise on August 11th 1954.

[wmaxt]

I've heard repeatedly the first full production aircraft to supercruise is the F-22. While it's possible some aircraft could in certain circumstanses it certainly was not consistent.

wmaxt

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is also what I have heard. I think the F-22 was the first.

[pbfoot]

the lightning was able to maintain super cruise at any without reheat according to my janes of 72 but according to my research i've been looking around a bit and found the 101 was able to maintain mach 1 witout burners but cannot determine if he needed burners to get mach got that info from www.f16.net is it true the lightning leaked like a sieve fuel wise while on ground

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well if that is true about the 101 and the Lightning then I have learned something today!

[Glider]

An observation but we might have a difference of view as to what Supercruise is. I am confident that the Lightning was the first aircraft to go supersonic without using the afterburner. That could well be different from a cruise speed that can be kept up for a length of time. Two Avon's on full dry power will use a fair amount of juice and the Lightning didn't carry that much to start with.
Supercruise would imply to me that the aircraft can maintain this for a decent period and I would expect that to be only achieved by a more modern aircraft such as the F15/F16 or failing that the F22.
I admit to knowing little about the F101 but I would be surprised if it could go supersonic without the afterburner. Its power to weight ratio is nothing special, good yes but not out of the ordinary. In addition it carried a lot of fuel and a fair amount of equipment and I don't believe that technology existed at that time to carry the weight to that level of performance.
Also on a pratical/Political level if the USAF had such a special performance why did they to purchase the F4 which was a Naval aircraft. They would have just developed the F101.

PB I was at Fairford this year and there was a bit of a stir when they had to clear part of the display, because the Rafael had developed a serious fuel leak causing some embarrassment to the French people on site.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very good point there glider.

[pbfoot]

the f 4 was more multi role intercepter air superiority recce .... the 101 never flew as intended long range escort had no external weapons capability that i'm aware just wasn't as mission capable as f4

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The thing I will always remember the F4 the most is the Wild Weasel role.