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Old 08-13-2005, 12:16 AM   #91
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:17 AM   #92
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OK Track, you made your point!
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:22 AM   #93
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Enough said FBJ ok I got the letters the wrong way round
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:24 AM   #94
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There ya go!
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Old 08-13-2005, 07:20 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir
The Foxbat was probably one of the key reasons the XB and YB-70 Valkyries were cancelled.
You got it Backwards - The Mig-25 was developed to counter the XB-70. That was mentioned several times in the book "MIG PILOT." The XB-70 was cancelled because of Soviet SAM development (1964, the program ended several years later when an F-104 collided with one of the prototypes east of Edwards AFB, California). The USAF changed it's stategic strike doctrine and developed low-level tactics and eventually coupled that with Stealth technology.......
Several versions of why the Foxbat was initially designed exist. I like the one adopted by Jane's Information Group, which I've always found to be among the most reliable technical sources available anywhere, in some cases I trust them more than I do official military release information.
Quote:
Design started 1959 as Ye-155P supersonic high-altitude interceptor to counter all potential threats, from cruise missiles to A-11 (SR-71A reconnaissance aircraft) under US development; programme launched officially February 1962.

(Russian air forces): MiG-25RB (Mikoyan Type 02B; `Foxbat-B'): Single-seat high-altitude reconnaissance-bomber, derived from Ye-155R-1 prototype; production began as MiG-25R (Type 02), for reconnaissance only, in 1969; bombing capability added to redesignated RB in 1970; able to fly long distances at cruising speed of Mach 2.35, maximum speed of Mach 2.83 with full bomb load.
Here is one provided by an independant author for an aviation publication:
Quote:
The MiG-25 high altitude, high speed interceptor was initially developed to counter the Mach 3 XB-70 Valkyrie bomber under development in the US in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Although the XB-70 as a bomber was cancelled in 1961, work on the new high speed interceptor and reconnaissance platform continued.
Initial ‘Foxbat’ production was of the MiG-25P interceptor. Service entry was in 1973.
The inconsistency I've highlighted is to show the somewhat questionable credibility in the source.

And one from the aviation.ru website on the MiG-25:
Quote:
The MiG-25 was originally designed to counter the A-11, not the B-70 as we all believed.
According to the best sources I can find:

The MiG-25 was designed in 1959.
Design of the XB70 also began in 1959.
The CIA Blackbird (A11) was designed in 1957.

You do the math.

Point two:
The Valkyrie project was cancelled in 1961. The official debate was the shooting down of a U2 in 1960 by a SAM diminishing the viability of high altitude high Mach overflights of enemy territory. However through the backchannels of military expediture the CIA was continued funding for a fleet of 12 high speed high altitude reconnaissance aircraft to directly overfly the USSR that same year, the Blackbirds.

It should be noted that during this period of the Cold War in particular, military technologies were institutionally shrouded in the utmost secrecy and elaborate misinformation.

The reluctance towards the Valkyrie programme might more likely be attributed to a Mach 3 dash rather than cruise inital capability, for which the proposal was completely redesigned and tendered again but required the development of all new technologies, including construction methods.
It was given clearance as a technological development testbed.

First flight was in 1964. Later, a transport/reconnaissance use was proposed for the defunct design.
Around this time Foxbats had flown at Mach 3.2 and 112,000 feet and were about to enter front line production, known to the US as a "reconnaissance-interceptor of unknown technology" (the US was unaware of the specific details such as individual variants).
The CIA Blackbird A11/12 had flown Mach 3.3 cruise at an uspecified altitude (on its very first flight with both J58 engines in 1963 the A11 did Mach 3.2). A YF-12A interceptor/bomber variant to counter the Foxbat was proposed and funded.

The Valkyrie was already earmarked for the cancellation of funding when NASA took up the contract for further development testing, just prior to the 1966 fatality. It was finally backlogged and cancelled for the last time in 1969 as an unsuccessful, if revolutionary design.

If the project had continued it would have been only as a transport/reconnaissance vehicle, as its strategic capabilities were obviously clearly outclassed by the Foxbat and YF-12A designs. It was a bit expensive for such a secondary role and its development value had been all but superceded.


I also found more information about Foxbats doing better than Mach 3 speeds at the same aviation.ru MiG 25 website.
Quote:
The MiG-25 that was clocked at Mach 3.2 by the Israelis achieved this speed while running from an intercepting F-4 (which can barely manage Mach 2 on a good day--before running out of fuel). Upon landing, both engines in the MiG had to be replaced.
Mach 2.83 is a theoretical stability limit on the airframe (which has been safely exceeded on numerous occasions by test pilots). At speeds greater than Mach 2.6 however, throttle control must be precise to keep the engines from overspeeding.
And more about the Foxbat's interception performance.
Quote:
The F-16 can just barely squeak past Mach 2.0 with a pair of wingtip sidewinders. The F-14 can only manage Mach 1.81. And the mighty Eagle is only good for Mach 1.78 (Mach 2.5 clean). The Foxbat can outclimb all of these fighters by a healthy margin, and has a mauch better supersonic endurance than the best Western fighter (F-22 notwithstanding).
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Old 08-13-2005, 07:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir
Design started 1959 as Ye-155P supersonic high-altitude interceptor to counter all potential threats, from cruise missiles to A-11 (SR-71A reconnaissance aircraft) under US development; programme launched officially February 1962.

(Russian air forces): MiG-25RB (Mikoyan Type 02B; `Foxbat-B'): Single-seat high-altitude reconnaissance-bomber, derived from Ye-155R-1 prototype; production began as MiG-25R (Type 02), for reconnaissance only, in 1969; bombing capability added to redesignated RB in 1970; able to fly long distances at cruising speed of Mach 2.35, maximum speed of Mach 2.83 with full bomb load.
Here is one provided by an independant author for an aviation publication:
Quote:
The MiG-25 high altitude, high speed interceptor was initially developed to counter the Mach 3 XB-70 Valkyrie bomber under development in the US in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Although the XB-70 as a bomber was cancelled in 1961, work on the new high speed interceptor and reconnaissance platform continued.
Initial ‘Foxbat’ production was of the MiG-25P interceptor. Service entry was in 1973.
The inconsistency I've highlighted is to show the somewhat questionable credibility in the source.
[/quote]

How is that inconsistent? You are reading bits and scanning the rest. Read the WHOLE quoted section and you will see the verbage not only describes different versions, but different terminologies.

The first quote states that the 25R was derived from the prototype and production began in 1969. This means when they first started building the airplane.

The second quote that you showed 25P, but look at the statement above that. It clearly states that there was a recon and an interceptor version. Then it states that service entry was in 1973. Makes sense to me, there is a big difference between when production begins and service entry.
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Old 08-13-2005, 08:21 AM   #97
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Favourite post-war aircraft; the English Electric Lightning. From a 1947 design it was the greatest interceptor of the Cold War and served until 1989 in the RAF.
While I agree that it is a great interceptor and one of the best ever built. I dont see how you can say it was better than a Tomcat. The F-14 could take out multiple targets before a Lightning even got off the ground.
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Old 08-13-2005, 11:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by vanir
If the project had continued it would have been only as a transport/reconnaissance vehicle, as its strategic capabilities were obviously clearly outclassed by the Foxbat and YF-12A designs. It was a bit expensive for such a secondary role and its development value had been all but superceded.
There was never any intensions to use the XB-70 as a transport. Lockheed started on a SST and TRADED most of that technology to Boeing for "S" duct technology used on the B727 and later on the Lockheed L1011. Boeing cancelled their SST program as government support dwindled. I know this for a fact cause I worked at Lockheed with people who worked on the YF-12A and were involved in this technology swap.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir
I also found more information about Foxbats doing better than Mach 3 speeds at the same aviation.ru MiG 25 website.
Quote:
The MiG-25 that was clocked at Mach 3.2 by the Israelis achieved this speed while running from an intercepting F-4 (which can barely manage Mach 2 on a good day--before running out of fuel). Upon landing, both engines in the MiG had to be replaced.
Mach 2.83 is a theoretical stability limit on the airframe (which has been safely exceeded on numerous occasions by test pilots). At speeds greater than Mach 2.6 however, throttle control must be precise to keep the engines from overspeeding.
And more about the Foxbat's interception performance.
Quote:
The F-16 can just barely squeak past Mach 2.0 with a pair of wingtip sidewinders. The F-14 can only manage Mach 1.81. And the mighty Eagle is only good for Mach 1.78 (Mach 2.5 clean). The Foxbat can outclimb all of these fighters by a healthy margin, and has a mauch better supersonic endurance than the best Western fighter (F-22 notwithstanding).
Again these points are pointless - the Foxbat has been beaten in battle on numerous occasions and only ONE MiG-25 kill has ever been confirmed aganist a western fighter - A Mig-25 shot down an F-18 over Serbia, the F-18 pilot survived....

Your numbers on the Foxbat must have come from a sales brosure. Even if the Mig-25 is flown at Mach 2.8, it has to be able to maneuver, it will slow down. Hang those lumbering "Aphid" missles on the machine and it turns into a brick

2 Mig-25s were shot down by F-15s during the Gulf War, the Isrealis destroyed another 3 or 4, all with the F-15. Bottom line, the MiG-25 and the MiG-31 are both bricks and will probably corrode themself to destruction while sitting on the ground because they are built pooly and are a nightmare to maintain....
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:45 PM   #99
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Very well put FBJ.
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:55 PM   #100
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Are you kidding me, Adler? The Lightning could far out-climb the F-14 from standstill. In fact, the Lightning is the fastest interceptor from stand-still to airborne! Even the F-15 with greater thrust:weight ratio cannot climb as quickly from standstill! It only gains the advantage after the first few hundred feet but by then the Lightning is already up in the air.
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Old 08-13-2005, 07:05 PM   #101
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Very well put FBJ.
Thanks Adler!

Another point - In the last years of the USSR the VVS actually removed the MiG-25 from frontal aviation interceptor squadrons and replaced them with MiG-23s and MiG-29s - why? Cause they cost too much money to maintain and operate and the Soviets figured out the aircraft was a pig! The MiG-31 was an attempt to give life to a dated design, but again it just wound up in a swine pen! The Chinese allegedly bought 24 of them with the plan of building 700 under license - this was supposed to start around 1999. This never materialized, I wonder why?!?

Although the MiG-31 carries a cannon, it could only maneuver at 5.5 Gs. What do you think an F-16 could do to it?!?

The last MiG-31s are expected to retire by 2010, if not sooner.
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Old 08-13-2005, 08:05 PM   #102
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Okay and the F-14 would be hitting targets while the Lightnign was still trying to get into range.
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Old 08-13-2005, 09:05 PM   #103
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Sorry FlyboyJ but you're post was far more ridiculous than mine, which had quite a bit of background to it.
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They YF-12 was canceled because there simply wasn't a threat for it to intercept. It was impractical but did assist in the development of the Phoenix missile system. The F-15 was developed under a whole different military doctrine nearly a decade later. The USAF didn't go with the F-15 in lieu of the YF-12, that's plain nonsense!!!
The YF-12A was cancelled because of mission complexity and overall cost. As described by an A12 CIA pilot who was carried over to the SR71 programme in his book, Blackbird (to paraphrase), "...the problem with the YF-12 interceptor was that every Blackbird mission required the support of a NASA ground station identical to that used in its space launches. In all respects flying the Blackbird is far more like a space mission than flying an aircraft."
But you're right about the missile system, the AIM-47 SARH and advanced radar package comprised the Pheonix weapon system, the 90 mile range missiles available initially in nuclear tipped and conventional warheads. These were further developed to the AIM-54 ARH when the entire package was salvaged by the Tomcat in an attempt to recover development costs.
Quote:
The F-15 will turn out to be one of the most cost effective weapons platforms when it is finally retired.
But not when it was intially developed. It was the single most expensive front line fighter of its day.
Quote:
NOW THAT'S A JOKE! Are you sure you don't mean the SU-27???? The Mig-31 has a big powerful radar that could still be jammed, flies real fast and carries BIG missiles. BIG DEAL! Other than that it's a pig! It's still built out of steel, it cannot maneuver out of it's own way, has a 600 hour engine, drinks fuel like a whale, has a turning radius comparible to an SR-71 and is (was) a logistical nightmare. There was no big secret during it's development. Why do you think the Russians and other former USSR nations have gotten rid of their MiG-31s? It's a brick with wings! I think just about any modern western fighter (F-15, F-16, Tornado, F-18 ) if deployed properly, will feast on the Mig-31 without mercy!
I think it's fun dispelling comic book misconceptions.

The airframe of the MiG 31 is 50% high temp. nickle steel, 16% titanium and 33% indeterminent light alloys. Radome and wing spars are composite.
The construction is inherently stronger than the F-15's alloy and titanium ribbed, composite construction and aluminium honeycomb sections, which is designed for high transonic performance and excellent manoeuvrability as a dogfighter (something which had been continually stressed by F-4 pilots during Vietnam). The Strike Eagle involved a reinforcing of the overall structure to sustain high g's under heavy subsonic loading.

The high-supersonic g rating of the Foxhound is 5g's. The SR-71 is 1.5g's. The SR-71 is limited to a 45 degree turn rate at high supersonic speeds, a restriction the entire MiG 25 series does not have.
All MiG 25s (including the MP Foxhound or MiG 31), were designed for high manoeuvrability and overall rigidity at high Mach speeds. Put simply the best way to achieve this is with a good old fashioned solid construction.
What they can't do is a sudden wing over, split-s and immelman at transonic speeds (Mach 0.85 to 1.2), quite like honeycomb/composite structure US fighters can. What it can do is manoeuvre far more erratically at high supersonic speeds (Mach 2.3 and up), than any other fighter in the world and it has a fully loaded combat radius of over 700km on internal fuel, at that speed (1200km otherwise). Since they don't tow a refuelling tanker behind them into combat, they obviously don't guzzle juice too badly.

Bench testing of the Aviadvigatel D-30F-6 four stage augumention engines has surpassed several hundred thousand flying hours without breakdown (source: Jane's Information Group), as compared to the 1,000hr engine life of the MiG-25PD Tumansky engines. To my knowledge, a D-30F-6 engine has yet to fail under any conditions.
The rated maximum cruise of Mach 2.83 at 67,500 feet is geared for minimum augumented fuel consumption which provides the 34,170lbs st. the engine is nominally rated to this speed at. However these engines are designed to be oversped to 41,843lbs st. rated total maximum thrust, whereas the Tumanksys although sharing this inherent overspeed feature due to application, were not and this was the cause of the earlier Foxbat's infamous unreliability.

The avionics and full ECM package of the MiG 31 contains an electronically scanned phase array "Flash Dance" radar (digital multimode pulse doppler with lookdown shootdown equivalent), with a 200km search range, the ability to track 10 targets at 120km and engage up to four, simultaneously. This radar is so sophisticated it is able to track targets below and immediately behind the aircraft for a limited over the shoulder weapons fire capability and totally outclasses all other combat radar systems in service at the time of its inception.
Its primary weapon system is comparable to the Pheonix and although in early R-33 variants SARH (roughly equivalent to the original Pheonix AIM-47 missiles), later generation R-77, R-27 and R-33 variants are available in ARH configuration (roughly equivalent to Pheonix AIM-54 if this model has become available and AIM-120 AMRAAM class missiles, although the R-77 early production models have a bad rep).
As usual with Soviet later generation aircraft a full IR search/track system is fitted standard, a retractable sensor in this case.

"Other nations," former Soviet territories or otherwise haven't gotten rid of their MiG-31's, nobody else had any (edit to add: you reminded me in another post, China recieved a small number of early build MiG-25MP/MiG31's, quite right and my error of memory), the Russian Federation have kept their relatively few number in service (less than 200 were ever made). In fact the former "White Russia," ie. the Ukraine has kept its original MiG-25PD/PDS and RB Foxbats in service alongside the excellent Tu-22M medium bomber, MiG-23 Floggers and early Fulcrum A's. The problem however being that the limited Tumansky engine life of the earlier Foxbats and subsequent maintainence costs meant they were flown so infrequently that, believe it or not when the Ukraine became independant, nobody actually knew how to fly them! The Ukraine, India and China however all presently keep perfectly combat ready Foxbats, with India earmarked for Foxhound import (edit to add: as at around 2000).

Russia has been promoting the export of the early MiG-31 "Foxhound A" (the MiG-25MP), since the inception of the improved MiG-31M which is now the standard front line variant. More than 160 "first generation" Foxhound A's were delivered and an ASAT (anti-satellite), version has been created in the hope to increase the attractability of this inherently expensive aircraft in the wake of inexpensive Sukhoi and Fulcrum popularity.
I understand the MiG-31M is also being offered for export in its existing configuration, which is a move that mirrors the intial production of the Foxbats in the 70's, as they are designed to be employed only in small numbers with a much larger force of (detuned in the case of foreign exports) counter-air fighters.

The F-15 enjoys similar infrastructure restrictions, requiring elaborate, expensive and specialised ground support and maintainence schedules, and a large, well surfaced runway with a good takeoff run. Look I love aircraft and the F-15 is a goddamn awesome one, but reality is reality.
Vipers are therefore used in front line airfields and a strategy of inexpensive multirole, quick turnaround and easily manufactured numbers (with high parts commonality), is employed to take greatest advantage of these inherent operational "logistics."
Put simply, the US military infrastructure is the wealthiest in the world, and if it had Mikoyan instead of McDonnell Douglas it'd be using Foxhounds just like it uses F-15s and in those numbers. It'd be replacing Foxbat early variants for Foxhound later ones just as if they were F-15A's being superceded by F-15C's and equipping Flankers and Platypii as if they were Strike Eagles. The F-15 hasn't been the cutting edge front line fighter because it's just well...so universally amazing a real philosophers stone, it is because the US is rich. There is no other reason.
And when you are rich you can afford to lay out untold billions in strategic "role to model outlay" and wait 35 years for it to come good on its investment financially. The Soviet Union tried it with the Flanker, Fulcrum and Foxhound team and broke their economy, now you can buy a new Su-27 cheaper than you'll get an F-15C with 3500 flying hours, you'll probably get an export Foxhound cheaper than you'll get a used Strike Eagle (you've been selling these to the Bin Ladens by the way, you naughty Americans). And Fulcrums are the European and Asiatic export competitor for Vipers.

The 1991 MiG-31M is did not fail to be the most advanced frontline fighter in the world at that time (to be superceded by the F/A-22), because it was incapable. It did because Russia is poor. Put it in similar numbers to the F-15C all over Frontal Aviation and I suspect the universal threat evaluation of this aircraft would more than have impacted any uneducated assumptions of its mediocrity.

Like all the final series of production aircraft in the former USSR, the Foxhound, Fulcrum and Flanker series are tremendously underrated even by many fighter enthusiasts which are not closely familiar with the these models. This holds true for the excellent Su-34 anti-armour attack aircraft in the Warthog class to the high performing Tu-160 strategic bomber (which is a lot like a Concorde...with nukes), and the Tu-22M maritime-recon and medium bomber in the B1-B class (only much better performing).
The last of the Soviet fighters are dirt cheap because the CIS is broke, not because evenly matched for type and number they aren't perfectly capable of dominating a modern battlefield. The former Soviet Union desintegrated its economy building them to compete with the best US design prototypes, not failing to. Relatively few celebrated democratic nations are buying them because of existing support infrastructure and politics, not because US fighters are inherently better.

Seriously FlyboyJ, I'm surprised at your apparent ignorance in this matter.

As for the reasons behind the F-15's initial development it will require another elaborate post unto itself. If you're unsatisfied with my assertion that it was directly conceived to combat the Foxbat in lieu of the overpriced and unrealistic YF-12A proposal, I'll get around to it presently.
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Old 08-13-2005, 10:01 PM   #104
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There was never any intensions to use the XB-70 as a transport. Lockheed started on a SST and TRADED most of that technology to Boeing for "S" duct technology used on the B727 and later on the Lockheed L1011. Boeing cancelled their SST program as government support dwindled. I know this for a fact cause I worked at Lockheed with people who worked on the YF-12A and were involved in this technology swap....
I'm unclear as to what you're saying there. The XB70 was never proposed as a transport/renonnaissance in an attempt to resurrect the programme, Lockheed started on an SST...
By all means clear things up from the inside view, I welcome your personal experience in this area and am always ready to learn credible and well presented facts.

Look it appears painfully clear you've been starting on my posts since the first which gave any show of background on the MiG. I'm not sayiing all background is acurrate, for all I know tomorrow morning, first thing people who were there are going to release that a swedish carpet cleaner in fact designed the MiG Foxbat whilst watering his daisies (very english sounding, that). But my comments arrive out of genuine research and a long time of enjoying looking up these aircraft.
Perhaps I should've posted, "ooh you are so big, flyboyJ, ooh you are so potent," but frankly I'm not at this forum for such a reason.
You don't like the Foxbats and Foxhounds, fair enough, but you're giving appraisals that kind of sound like they're alluding to being based on personal experience flying these aircraft, which I seriously doubt. If such is indeed not the case, we'll just have to go with individual impressions and the best accurate information we can find.

You're entitled to your opinion but your appraisals of the technical specifications of Foxbats and Foxhounds is rough and incomplete and inaccurate on a wide variety of details, according to credible specifications published.
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Again these points are pointless - the Foxbat has been beaten in battle on numerous occasions and only ONE MiG-25 kill has ever been confirmed aganist a western fighter - A Mig-25 shot down an F-18 over Serbia, the F-18 pilot survived....
This sounds more like "I don't like your posts" to me. Pointless how? The two or three occasions where MiG Foxbats have ever been in battle (Syria, Saudi and initially, Iraq), were short lived, they were in very small numbers, were early variants (150hr engine life R15-B300 Tumanskys), pilots therefore had low familiarity, accompanying aircraft had been detuned (export MiG 23 variants, MiG 21 radar and weapons fitted), and they were hopelessly outnumbered. Using them for your "well considered appraisal" is far more pointless.
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Your numbers on the Foxbat must have come from a sales brosure. Even if the Mig-25 is flown at Mach 2.8, it has to be able to maneuver, it will slow down. Hang those lumbering "Aphid" missles on the machine and it turns into a brick
The MiG Foxbat has a supersonic g rating of 4.5g's. Aphids were excellent missiles of the 1960 and 70's. As were Sparrows and Sidewinders. I'm not big on the R-40's myself but apparently they're fairly comparable to the Sparrows of the day but with a better range spread and a nice, big warhead. R-73's are apparently as good as later Sidewinders. R-23's are as good as later Sparrows with their proximity fuse and a slightly heavier yeild.

The MiG 25 has throttle problems with overspeeding over Mach 2.6, this is inherent to the design of its turbojets. The airframe is rated to Mach 2.82 with a full load of four underwing bombs, a performance which it has demonstrated. It is also anecdotally exampled to have flown at speeds exceeding Mach 3 on numerous occasions, however in each case the engines were destroyed (these speeds were as a result of engine overspeed or "runaway rpm"), which the Foxbat was prone to without precise throttle control at high Mach speeds.

Its cruise speed is Mach 2.35, higher speeds may be considered a dash ability, designed to be used in strategic interception applications as a potentially one shot use. More anecdotal evidence has it Soviet pilots had to be specially cleared to use the Foxbat over Mach 2.3.
The Foxhound by comparison, with its redesigned bypass tubojets (aviadvigatel turbofans), has no problems with a Mach 2.83 cruise speed at 67,500 feet and is markedly more reliable under overspeeding conditions (designed specifically for up to 40% overspeeding or more than 41,000lbs of aug. thrust per engine).
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Old 08-13-2005, 10:40 PM   #105