Your favorite post-war aircraft

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And what sources do you have? Everything that I think we have read is stating how the Mig-25 and 31 were nothign more than fast straight fliers. They would be outturned.

As for you post about the F-15 being so expensive. All new fighters are like that. Over time the F-15 paid for its self.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by vanir

"Pig, brick, would get feasted on by F15/16/14/etc." is just ignorant comic book patriotism. You're the one who sounds like a brochure, the hard-sell kind with a heavy dose of redneck.

I DON'T APPRECIATE THE NAME CALLING, I WAS BORN ON THE EAST COAST OF THE US - FAR FROM BEING A REDNECK! I'VE BEEN IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY FOR 28 YEARS AND ACTUALLY FLY AIRCRAFT. I FIND BY YOUR INTERNET SURFING OF SNIPPETS TO HOLD YOUR ARGUMENTS TOGETHER ACTUALLY SHOWS YOUR LACK OF AVIATION KNOWLEDGE, IN MY CIRCLES YOU'RE KNOWN AS A "WANNA-BE." ACTUALLY YOU DO IT SO WELL YOU ACTUALLY CONTRADICT AND ARGUE WITH YOURSELF BY YOUR MILES OF "CUT AND PASTE" COMMENTS AND STATISTICS THAT USUALLY GO NOWHERE! BOTTOM LINE THOUGH, IF YOU CAN'T CARRY ON A PROPER DUOLOGUE WITHOUT INSULTS DIRECTED AT ME, I SUGGEST YOU PULL YOUR AUSSIE HEAD OUT OF YOUR PET ROOS' POUCH AND POST ELSEWHERE!

I'm only responding to your more ridiculous comments....

Originally Posted by vanir

"The MiG 25 has throttle problems with overspeeding over Mach 2.6, this is inherent to the design of its turbojets. The airframe is rated to Mach 2.82 with a full load of four underwing bombs, a performance which it has demonstrated. It is also anecdotally exampled to have flown at speeds exceeding Mach 3 on numerous occasions, however in each case the engines were destroyed (these speeds were as a result of engine overspeed or "runaway rpm"), which the Foxbat was prone to without precise throttle control at high Mach speeds.

If you knew ANYTHING about turbine engines, this situation has NOTHING to do with the "throttles," In fact on TURBINE engine aircraft the correct term is "POWER LEVERS." "Throttles" are a term used for reciprocating engines....
The engines over speed because there is little boundary control at the front of the air intake on the MiG-25/ 31. The air going in will eventually go supersonic. The engines on these aircraft have bleed air valves that prevent the compressors from stalling when this happens but lack the means to prevent over speed. Maybe you could be more precise if you didn't cut and paste that one....

Originally Posted by vanir

The airframe of the MiG 31 is 50% high temp. nickle steel, 16% titanium and 33% indeterminent light alloys.

YES AND WHEN YOU PUT THESE ALLOYS TOGETHER THEY CORRODE, LIKE MOST MIG-29S AND 31S ARE DOING AS WE SPEAK! IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT THIS MAKE THEM AN AIRFRAME MAINTENANCE NIGHTMARE!!!

Originally Posted by vanir

All MiG 25s (including the MP Foxhound or MiG 31), were designed for high manoeuvrability and overall rigidity at high Mach speeds.

What a Joke! Victor Belenko himself said the exact opposite in his book MIG PILOT. You even posted that these aircraft have a 5G rating. A modern fighter aircraft with a max 5G rating is toast! The 30 year old L-29 I fly can pull 9 Gs for Christs sake!!!!!

Originally Posted by vanir

As an airframe/technology combination the Foxhound is 10 yrs, not 40yrs old.

You're wrong! MiG-31M development started in 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-31

Originally Posted by vanir

The tiny number the Chinese bought, the only people outside the Russian Federation who operated them, were early build Foxhound A models, the MiG-25MP (MiG-31), a completely different animal to the MiG-31M which has an improved airframe. Around 160 were built. Without the Russian financial troubles it has been speculated (anecdotal), nobody outside their own air forces would have been given any but they have all been offered for export, under quite a bit of sales promotion since about 2000.

No - The Chinese figured out the MiG-31 wasn't what it was cranked up to be

Originally Posted by vanir

You don't like these MiGs at all. I appreciate them. You like the XB70, I think it was a high school science project.
I don't think we're really going to get along on any of this.

No - I love Mig aircraft! - I'VE ASSEMBLED AND MAINTAINED MIG-15s, 17s, 21S AND L-29s and 39S WHILE I LIVED IN CALIFORNIA - LOOK UP MOJAVE WHEN YOU DO YOUR INTERNET SURFING. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MIG LET ALONE WORKED OR FLOWN ON ONE?!? I've flown Mig-15s, L-29 & 39s and probably got more experience around these aircraft than you could ever wish to dream about!

I never said anything about the XB-70 except the MiG-25 was built to counter it, and the one thing I could agree with you, yes, it was a science project.

Much of my experience with these aircraft are HANDS ON and talking to the Ex-Soviet pilots who now reside here in the states who are contracted by the owners to test fly them after they are assembled and licensed. Most of my opinions and information are reflections of what these guys have told me while they trained me to work on their former country's aircraft - and the ones I met who flew the MiG-25 and 31 said IT WAS A PIG!

I think you might want to consider reading some of the information you post before you "cut and paste it" into a conglomeration of gibberish, half truths and wrong information. Again, you're entitled to your opinions and cut and paste beliefs, but don't call anyone on this forum names when you can't get them to agree with you......

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very well said FBJ! And yes vanir you need to back off with the insults. We have had eneogh problems with this kind of stuff and dont need it anymore.

[plan_D]

Adler, the F-14 would still be on the ground warming up it's avionics while the Lightning was up in the air in less than two minutes from the alarm bell. Once it's up in the air it's up to 50,000 feet in little over a minute and shooting at almost Mach 1 towards it's target. Need it go any faster, it can reach Mach 2.3!

In three minutes the Lightning can be in the air at optimum speed and altitude (45,000 feet and Mach 0.87) from alarm bell. That time includes the time it takes for men to get the pilot in and roll the Lightning on to the runway.

In three minutes a F-14 would only just be off the runway since it's spent most of that time warming up.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

On all US Carriers there were 2 Tomcats at the ready to launch at all times. Systems up and running and ready to go. The Tomcat could hit targets before the Lightning was in range. The Tomcat could fly to Mach 2.5.

Sorry but the Tomcat was a better overall interceptor than the Lightning was.

[plan_D]

The only reason the Tomcat would ever be able to get up before the Lightning was because of the catapult on ships. You put them both on a ground strip, the Lightning would show it up.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And when is a Tomcat going to see combat from a ground strip. About 90 percent of the time never. Sorry plan_D but this really is an argument that you can not win. The F-14 was made with newer technologies. Who cares if the Lightning can climb faster. The Tomcat could hit the targets while the Lightning is still climbing up after it. The Tomcat was better than the Lightning.

[plan_D]

The F-14 would have to be stationed on a carrier to get anywhere near the intercept capablities of a Lightning. The Lightning could defeat the F-14 to the target off a ground strip, and the F-14 could off a carrier.

The F-14 would have to warm up, you cannot sit a plane there with it's engine on constantly. The only advantage in pure intercept duties the F-14 has is that it can carry maverick missiles. By the time the F-14 is ready, the Lightning is already miles up and miles beyond. Being able to get off the ground and get high quickly is a vital part of an interceptor.

I will concede from a carrier a F-14 would be up quicker than the Lightning but from the ground, no way. It would be so far behind the minor range deficiency of the Lightning's weapons would mean little.

And my comment on the Lightning being the best interceptor of the Cold War still stands. The F-14 didn't come to service until 20 or so years after the Lightning, the Cold War was over.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What the cold war was over before the Tomcat entered service. Please plan_D you know better than that. The Tomcat entered service around 1972. The cold war did not end until 1990. So how did the Tomcat enter after the cold war ended.

Lets see the Tomcat can track up to 24 targets simultaneously with its advanced weapons control system and attack six with Phoenix AIM-54A missiles while continuing to scan the airspace. Can the Lightning do this. ummm NO.

The Tomcats AWG-9 is a pulse-Doppler, multi-mode radar with a designed capability to track 24 targets at the same time while simultaneously devising and executing fire control solutions for 6 targets. Designed in the 1960's and one of the oldest air-to-air radar systems, the AWG-9 is still the most powerful and new software will increase its capabilities for the 21st century. Can the Lightnign compare to that. umm No.

Info taken from:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../f-14-unit.htm
http://www.nawcad.navy.mil/nawcad/rs...fcs/index.html
http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircra...cat/tomcat.htm

[plan_D]

The Cold War was practically over in the 1980s. The fall of the Berlin Wall was merely a symbol of the end.

The Lightning could climb to 50,000 feet in one minute, 60, 000 feet in just over a minute. It could be at 40,000 feet and Mach 0.87 in under a minute and in the direction of it's opponent. It has a RADAR scope of 120 degrees, more than the most, if not all, fighter aircraft. It could release it's Red Top at any direction, it didn't need to face it's opponent to destroy it.

The only reason the F-14 could be considered superior is the Phoenix missiles. Off a ground strip, the Lightning would be able to track and destroy it's target before the F-14 could.

The F-14 is the better aircraft overall but off a ground strip, the Lightning was a superior interceptor to anything.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Who cares about this damn ground strip, jeezus christ. Just admit that the F-14 was a better intereceptor. Damn plan_D I like you and all but you are fricken more stubborn than my wife sometimes. You can come up with anythign to argue with a brick wall if you had to!

Anyways peace out, I am out on vacation for a couple of weeks, see ya in a couple of weeks.

[plan_D]

Well, you'd need aircraft carriers all over your coast for the F-14 to be able to intercept like the Lightning did.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Very well said FBJ! And yes vanir you need to back off with the insults. We have had eneogh problems with this kind of stuff and dont need it anymore.

THANKS!

[Nonskimmer]

At the risk of getting the sh*t beat out of me by Adler (in the imaginary sense of course ), I agree with PD about the Lightning's effectiveness as an interceptor. As he's indicated, the fact that it didn't have the range of an F-14 doesn't really play into this, because it was designed to defend the British Isles. A job that it was particularly good at. It's systems were simplistic when compared to the Tomcat's, but it got to it's destination damn fast, which was the whole idea, and it could certainly deal with the threats it was designed to. Just me own opinion.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are right NS it was a great interceptor. I will never deny that. I just would not go as far as calling the Lightning the best Intercepter ever built. The F-14 could fly just as fast, infact with the F-14D it could fly even faster. It could not climb as fast as the Lightning but I would go as far to say that the F-14D with is 2 engines rated at 32000lb thrust each may have been able to. But at the same time the F-14 did not need to get as high the Lighting. It could shoot down whatever it needed to with its AIM-54 Pheonixes, 6 at a time and coudl technically track up to 24 targets. All of this without the Tomcat even having to see its enemy.

I repeat myself I never said the Lightning was not a great intercepter and not one of the best, but the Tomcat was of different class and was better.

Oh and NS I could never beat the **** out of you. I love you man!