4 Canadians killed, 6 wounded in big battle with Taliban in Afghanistan

Hunter368 · 09-05-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

"four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though."

Four is four too many,and this is becoming a routine,You think the Canadian military can afford to lose over 1000 men to the insurgents, like the americans have, no! we cant we dont have the manpower to afford that, and news hit again, the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.

Hussars,

I have family in the Military also, I feel for those families to. We are doing our part, the best of our ability, to fight terrorists. Whether its 1 Canadian or 1 UK or 1 US soldier its too many, one death is one death, they are all too many but they are the cost to fight terror.

US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can.

Do you think we could do it any better??? Accidents happen, they are tragic but they still happen.

Don't focus your anger at the US military when it should be focused at terrorists. We are all in this fight together, some contribute more than others but we all fight side by side. USA has lost alot more people than we have. A USA death is no less than a Canadian death.

Where would the world be without USA aid in fighting terror?

Stay focused on the real enemy here.....terrorists.

102first_hussars · 09-05-2006, 05:02 PM

"US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can."

I dont doubt that the U.S military is doing whatever it can to prevent such things, but im not going to just turn the other cheek when these things happen, im sorry, my grandfather was crippled by a P-51 tank-buster, his Sherman was bombed, he lossed his leg and the use of his right arm, you can say this was an accident, i will accept that, but if you look up accident in the dictionary, it will say, "a negative result due to human error" all accidents are preventable.

And yes Nonskimmer, i see what your saying, the shooting of that Afgani Police Officer was horrrible, but im gonna hold my breath until there is more info, because it says that the guy was not in uniform and he didnt yeild to warning shots, and after a firefight with guys in a speeding van, thats a big no no.

Hunter368 · 09-05-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

"US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can."

I dont doubt that the U.S military is doing whatever it can to prevent such things, but im not going to just turn the other cheek when these things happen, im sorry, my grandfather was crippled by a P-51 tank-buster, his Sherman was bombed, he lossed his leg and the use of his right arm, you can say this was an accident, i will accept that, but if you look up accident in the dictionary, it will say, "a negative result due to human error" all accidents are preventable.

And yes Nonskimmer, i see what your saying, the shooting of that Afgani Police Officer was horrrible, but im gonna hold my breath until there is more info, because it says that the guy was not in uniform and he didnt yeild to warning shots, and after a firefight with guys in a speeding van, thats a big no no.

Hussar's,

I deal every day in numbers, humans are not perfect, all accidents cannot prevented 100% of the time. They will happen as long as we have humans doing anything. Humans make errors. All we can do is "try to reduce" the numbers of accidents.

102first_hussars · 09-05-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Hussar's,

I deal every day in numbers, humans are not perfect, all accidents cannot prevented 100% of the time. They will happen as long as we have humans doing anything. Humans make errors. All we can do is "try to reduce" the numbers of accidents.

Actually you are wrong, you know what the numer 1 type of injury in Canada alone is?

Its preventable injury, Accidents

Hunter368 · 09-05-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

Actually you are wrong, you know what the numer 1 type of injury in Canada alone is?

Its preventable injury, Accidents

No I am not wrong Hussar. Are you perfect? no

Am I perfect? no

None of us are. We are human.

Preventable means that is "possable" to prevent something. But thats with 20/20 hindsight, humans are not all knowing all seeing. When you place humans in stressful job while multitasking they will make mistakes. I deal with this everyday of my life. Thats is large part of what I do for a living. Mistakes happen, once thats excepted all you can do is learn from that mistake to see if it can prevented from happening again in the future.

I deal with work place injuries all the time, all we can do is our best to forsee and prevent accidents from happening. Being 100% mistake free means you are doing nothing or you are dreaming. Humans make mistakes, machines are not even mistake free b/c they are programmed and made by humans.

Mistakes happen.

Here is the Webster meaning for "preventable" :To keep from happening or existing. To hold back: hinder: stop.

To me the key word pertaining to this talk is "hinder". We can do all we can to hinder or reduce accidents from happening. We will never....ever stop 100% accidents from happening as long as we are humans.

FLYBOYJ · 09-05-2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

"four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though."

Four is four too many,and this is becoming a routine,You think the Canadian military can afford to lose over 1000 men to the insurgents, like the americans have, no! we cant we dont have the manpower to afford that, and news hit again, the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.

Hussars, I'm telling you straight up - you're being a *****ing @sshole and you're really pissing me off. You weren't there, you have no idea who called in the air strike from the ground and who was the FAC, American or Canadian. The US have had several friendly fire incidences where we bombed our own troops and yes its unfortunate, but its part of war and unless the FAC got his sh*t together he's going to kill his own troops and maybe himself. As time has gone on in this conflict US on US friendly fire incidences have become less and less as the learning curb flattened (It's an unfortunate way to learn, but that the facts) So until all the facts are uncovered and until it is found out who called the strike in on their position (my guess it was a Canadian FAC) I suggest you shut the f#ck up and pull your head out of your @ss.

BTW we haven't lost 1000 troops in Afghanistan!!!!

pbfoot · 09-05-2006, 07:01 PM

The facts will speak for themselves did someone transpose a number in a situation like that it happens . I would think that SOP would be to readback the position ,did the Taliban fake the call .Lets wait to find out what happened and Hussars you should know this as CWO in JTF2 or Field Marshall or whatever rank you say you were in Cadets

FLYBOYJ · 09-05-2006, 07:03 PM

Thank you PB...

FLYBOYJ · 09-05-2006, 10:55 PM

Here a newsclip from the CBC - It isn't clear who called in the strike. Whether the pilots attacked the right coordinates, well the investigation will sort that out...

Friendly fire that killed Canadian was 'freak accident,' major says - Yahoo! Canada News

"Maj. Geoff Abthorpe - who commands Bravo Company, part of Canada's 2,200-strong contribution to the NATO force in Afghanistan - called the incident "a freak accident."

The soldiers were "marshalling and getting into position" when they were hit, Abthorpe told the Canadian Press late Monday.

NATO said the aircraft had engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons.

"I'm not sure who brought them in and for what reason," said Abthorpe, a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment.

"It wasn't us, of course. We were getting prepped to go out but our first air mission wasn't scheduled until 30 minutes later."

plan_D · 09-06-2006, 01:15 AM

hussars, four deaths is four deaths too many. But you cannot expect no one to be injured or die in a warzone. Four deaths in a single battle where some two-hundred of the enemy was killed is a pretty good number. My condolences to the family, but this is a war and in war people die. The Coalition has maintained a kill to loss ratio far beyond anything recorded in the past. And as long as that is kept up, the losses are acceptable.

Hunter368 · 09-06-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

hussars, four deaths is four deaths too many. But you cannot expect no one to be injured or die in a warzone. Four deaths in a single battle where some two-hundred of the enemy was killed is a pretty good number. My condolences to the family, but this is a war and in war people die. The Coalition has maintained a kill to loss ratio far beyond anything recorded in the past. And as long as that is kept up, the losses are acceptable.

Agreed

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 09-08-2006, 12:56 PM

FBJ I am surprised you are letting this get to you. Hussars blames the US for anythign and everythign that goes wrong, any mistake, and any problems that his country has. He has done that from day one when he joined this forum.

I was starting to stay out of this thread for a while but I will put my two cents in now.

1. I wish to say these soldiers will surely be missed, any coalition loss is tragic no matter how it happens.

2. Mistakes happen. Friendly fire happens. It has happened since day 1 of conflict. Hussars if you have actually spent 2 days in the Army you should know that. It is tragic but it happens in war.

3. The US does not go around dropping bombs on anything it wants to just to kill them, especially if they have a Maple Leaf on there flag.

4. I know all about fratricide. My unit had 2 Blackhawks shot down by USAF F-15s in the first Gulf War. Was it tragic, Yes. Am I mad at the USAF, NO.

5. Most of the time when fratricide happens it happens because multiple failures. I am pretty sure that not only did the USAF pilot drop his bombs on the wrong target but more than likely the Canadians or who ever called in the airstrike (maybe it was the Canadians maybe it was an artillery observer) more than likely gave the wrong coordinates.

Do you know how many times the USAF has recieved the exact coordinates for an airstrike that the caller is sitting in from the caller? More than you probably think Hussars.

Basically what I am saying Hussars is this:

LEARN THE FACTS BEFORE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT.

FLYBOYJ · 09-08-2006, 01:31 PM

Thanks Chris, you put the perfect perspective on this..

Here's another statement about operations in the area...

"NATO spokesman Mark Laity said the force's soldiers flew in roughly 800 missions during the past month and used their weapons in about 450 of them — without killing any allies until now.

"It shows you how rare [friendly fire] is," Laity said."

Hunter368 · 09-08-2006, 01:54 PM

Well said Chris. I am proud to be a Canadian and proud to have the Americans as Allies.

Hussars remember who the enemy is here, its the terrorists not the Americans. **** happens, accidents happen. Just drop it (no pun intended).

Nonskimmer · 09-08-2006, 03:33 PM

It might do people well to remember too that incidents like this happen in any military, Canada's included. A young PPCLI trooper was accidentally shot and killed by one of his own buddies a fairly short time ago. The poor fella had only been in the theatre for about a week, and was killed by one of our very own. Accidental discharge of the weapon. It happens. It's a shItty, shItty thing, but it does happen on occasion. Where the US military is so large and so active, it's bound to happen a little more often perhaps, but it doesn't make the Americans incompetent fools. Unfortunately, a lot of people tend to react to this sort of thing almost as if it were done on purpose. We can't afford to lose focus and start to hate allies for every unfortunate occurrence. Men die in combat, and not always from direct enemy fire. You should hear my great-uncle's take on some of the events of WWII. Friendly fire was almost a way of life, it happened so often.