British Sailors seized by Iran.

Ajax · 04-06-2007, 06:32 PM

That sort of thing is Strictly forbidden!

How can a nation get away with mock execution nowadays? The dirty, theavin, ungrateful bastards...

renrich · 04-06-2007, 06:54 PM

I have a concern about the British sailors and marines who were captured without a fight and who in a very short time caved in and said whatever their captors wanted them to. Is this the type of behavior their training prepared them for? When I compare this to the behavior of John McCain and Sam Johnson and countless others in Viet Nam and when I try to remember the words of the code of honor we learned when I was in the service(admittedly not in combat) Does anyone else share my concern?

lesofprimus · 04-06-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Hehehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by kloby

Is that you laughing at your own wisecrack???

Ur damn right it was....

plan_D · 04-06-2007, 07:04 PM

Reinrich, what planet do you live on? 'Cos it certainly isn't the same one I'm on.

You're complaining about 15 British servicemen surrendering without a fight, against six Iranian gunboats. It ain't Hollywood, if those people would have fought against the Iranians they'd have been killed in an instant.

And for the troops to announce that they were in Iranian waters means nothing. Everyone knew they were lying, and they just wanted to go home. British training is "name, rank and number" that's it...but if telling a lie gets you home then so be it.

pbfoot · 04-06-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renrich

I have a concern about the British sailors and marines who were captured without a fight and who in a very short time caved in and said whatever their captors wanted them to. Is this the type of behavior their training prepared them for? When I compare this to the behavior of John McCain and Sam Johnson and countless others in Viet Nam and when I try to remember the words of the code of honor we learned when I was in the service(admittedly not in combat) Does anyone else share my concern?

nope

mkloby · 04-06-2007, 08:02 PM

Renrich is referring the US Code of Conduct:

Article I: I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Article II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

Article III: If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Article V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service, number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

Article VI: I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

Honestly, renrich, that had crossed my mind. But, the thing is, 1 - I don't know what type of code of conduct the British forces have. And 2 - I really know nothing of the sort of what went on. You really just don't know what had happened. I think that's the important part. I don't think anyone is in a position to pass judgment on their actions. I believe if there is any thought of wrongdoing, the british will investigate and take appropriate action.

Matt308 · 04-06-2007, 08:07 PM

No actually, it was a rather lame attempt to cover up the fact that I pasted a post in the wrong thread.

Heed my Title, mkloby! I shall not answer your queries of my F'ups hence forward.

Jank · 04-06-2007, 08:10 PM

renrich said, "Does anyone else share my concern?"

Very well said renrich and yes, I for one do.

Joint statement from Lt. Carmen:

"I would just like to stress three points at this stage:

* When taken by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard we were well inside Iraqi territorial waters.
* The detention was clearly illegal and not a pleasant experience.
* We as a group held out for as long as we though appropriate. We then complied up to a point with our captors.

We remain Immensely proud of our team. Their courage and dignity throughout their illegal detention was in line with the best tradition of the service."

Held out for as long as they felt appropriate? They caved within a week. Complied up to a point? I'm trying to imagine what they possibly were asked to say which they refused to give in on. Best traditions of the service? If I were a member of the Iranian military, I would certainly feel emboldened by this display of "best tradition."

They say the sun never sets on the British Empire. Perhaps she finally shriveled up from too much exposure.

The aspect of this story that I find most interesting is just how dangerous the Iranians are. The British captives said that a primary reason for not fighting back was they did not want to provoke an international incident with its unintended, attendant consequences. Interesting that the Iranians deliberately planned a seizure of 15 British a mile and a half within internationally recognized Iraqi waters without the restraint of any such considerations. What if there had been a firefight (which the Iranians necessarily would have expected as not just possible but quite likely) and an ensuing loss of all 15 Britons?

Oops.

mkloby · 04-06-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt308

No actually, it was a rather lame attempt to cover up the fact that I pasted a post in the wrong thread.

Heed my Title, mkloby! I shall not answer your queries of my F'ups hence forward.

Yes, Sir!

Matt308 · 04-06-2007, 08:21 PM

pbfoot · 04-06-2007, 08:50 PM

Firstly they were not POW's nor was it a war . Was the detention illegal yes ,
and you can't say squat until you've walked in the mans shoes ,. Did you believe the confession's I know I didn't nor did anyone with an iota of sense . I'm quite sure the RM's know the code and probably have done training in interogation techniques . Were there not US pilots who confessed on Iraqi TV back in 91 I believe there were but could be wrong

Matt308 · 04-06-2007, 08:54 PM

Well said, Pb. Its part of the captive training. Agree to anything for well being, but attempt to provide clues to your duress.

plan_D · 04-07-2007, 10:11 AM

Has the stupid bug just bitten everyone who is "showing concern" here?

Those soldiers would have been killed instantly for absolutely no gain. Why should they fight back just to be killed for nothing? America might not care about its troops and expects them to fight in any situation, but Britain shows some restraint.

Those troops did the right thing, and they gave away no military secrets. Everyone knew they were forced to say those things about entering Iranian waters, they would have known we had the idea they were forced. So what fu*king difference does it make?!

Basically, being concerned about their actions just says to anyone with a brain that you wanted them to go all gung-ho and get themselves killed. It ISN'T Hollywood, people die, those people have families ...trying to act like John Wayne would have got them killed, their families distressed and the British government in the position of war. For what? Just to make Hollywood junkies happy?!

And it WAS said the sun never set on the British Empire - the Empire has been and gone. Those lads were not fighting for a tradition, they're family members and soldiers ... I feel the need to repeat - opening fire would have got them all killed for NOTHING.

FalkeEins · 04-07-2007, 11:02 AM

..these people have families....

and I thought that they were in the military to lay down their lives for us in time of war - couldn't see that lot doing it frankly......they'll be suing the government for compensation next... taking on those Iranian gunboats might have avoided the whole sorry farce of their 'captivity' ..and shown the Iranians that we will not tolerate the Mullahs messing around with the UN ...

mind you having said that, why should we believe anything our government tells us about the location of these 15 when they were taken....they have been economical with the truth with us so much over the past few years..

I come back to my previous point of women in the military..while we have some 20,000 serving women in the British armed forces they are still barred from serving in units likely to close directly with the enemy... ..yet over 500 service women have been wounded, maimed or killed in Iraq, (mostly US) many of whom have (had) kids at home....
...here a recent review arrived at the conclusion that 'mixed' forces hinder combat effectiveness..as far as the 15 were concerned it seems to have completely emasculated it...certainly the Iranians 'milked it' ....

interesting piece in the paper today ..apparently 83 service women have been sent home from Iraq after falling pregnant...

Erich · 04-07-2007, 11:13 AM

gents/ladies :

hoping this makes sense, as I am on more cancer fighting drugs this grey morn.

what type of ship and what type of arms did this British vessel have on board and did it have the capabilities to take on the Iranian copters or whatever they used to capture the British as hostages ? I have not really followed this as close as i should have .........