Canada's Shame

mkloby · 10-28-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

The moral of this to me is never comment on a dumb subject

which is what this whole thread is

I don't understand you, Pb. If global intervention is a dumb subject, then what would be a worthy matter of discussion?

pbfoot · 10-28-2007, 12:50 PM

Not global intervention but the topic of Canada s shame, if you wish to tlk about global intervention fine. No single country walks the moral high ground every nation on earth has messed up in one form or another .But to put Iraq on the moral high ground doesn't cut it with me . When the 2nd gulf war was about to start I was mistakenly for it , but after finding out how the intelligence was (imho) intentionally skewed I'm glad we up North opted out. Yet at the same time I am in full agreement with our participation in Afghanistan . Our NATO ally was attacked on 9/11 and according to NATO its all for one and one for all but the basis for the attack was formed and planned in Afghanistan not Iraq.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-28-2007, 12:54 PM

Okay but what does this have to do with intervening in the world or not and why America chooses to do so or not?

mkloby · 10-28-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Not global intervention but the topic of Canada s shame, if you wish to tlk about global intervention fine. No single country walks the moral high ground every nation on earth has messed up in one form or another .But to put Iraq on the moral high ground doesn't cut it with me . When the 2nd gulf war was about to start I was mistakenly for it , but after finding out how the intelligence was (imho) intentionally skewed I'm glad we up North opted out. Yet at the same time I am in full agreement with our participation in Afghanistan . Our NATO ally was attacked on 9/11 and according to NATO its all for one and one for all but the basis for the attack was formed and planned in Afghanistan not Iraq.

Canada's shame - well the title of the thread is another matter. Not that my opinion of Canada matters but I don't think they have anything to be "shameful" about. It is fine to object to the conflict - and we disagree, but I'm not going to throw insults your way

What do you think regarding Iran developing nuclear power and/or weapons? Do you think it would be justified to intervene militarily? Economic sanctions?

pbfoot · 10-28-2007, 01:36 PM

Iran with nukes is not something I want to see and Sanctions would be the method of choice but in a real world that won't work but feet on the ground or airstrikes will only make the problem far worse .
In problem solving we have to look at the root cause or common thread and that is the dissension between Israel and the Palestinians solve that and we might have a starting point to make the middle east a peaceful area. in otherwords take away the fuel from the fire .

mkloby · 10-28-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Iran with nukes is not something I want to see and Sanctions would be the method of choice but in a real world that won't work but feet on the ground or airstrikes will only make the problem far worse .
In problem solving we have to look at the root cause or common thread and that is the dissension between Israel and the Palestinians solve that and we might have a starting point to make the middle east a peaceful area. in otherwords take away the fuel from the fire .

If the Iranian gov't was destroyed, and the capability to develop nuclear weapons removed, how exactly would that make the problem worse? Do you mean other nations attempting to gain nukes, or exacerbating hostility against westerners in an already largely unfriendly region?

Solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has proved very difficult (obviously)! I think there are many very aggressive Arabs that will not accept any solution other than Israel ceasing to exist. There is surely a large contingent of Persians that feel the same way. Israel will still be the target of attacks, and will need to come up with a way to defend itself - which will likely start the whole cycle all again, even if a peaceful settlement was acheived.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-28-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Iran with nukes is not something I want to see and Sanctions would be the method of choice but in a real world that won't work

I agree that in the real world it wont work, but why do you think Sanctions would be the method of choice. As you said it will not work. Sanctions have rarely worked and will not work in Irans case because in order for diplomacy to work both sides have to give and take.

Iran is not willing to give and niether is the west (rightfully so).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

but feet on the ground or airstrikes will only make the problem far worse .

Maybe however Iran does not understand anything but the sword. They are not willing to play as adults in the real world. Simple fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

In problem solving we have to look at the root cause or common thread and that is the dissension between Israel and the Palestinians solve that and we might have a starting point to make the middle east a peaceful area. in otherwords take away the fuel from the fire .

How do you suggest we solve that problem? Iran nuking Israel is no the sollution and unfortunatly that is what they want.

pbfoot · 10-28-2007, 02:51 PM

As discussed im many other threads these guys have a sense of history that goes back a long way. The UK and US overthrew the legally elected gov't of Iran in 53 and installed the Shah who pretty much crushed all opposition and although he modernized Iran also was pretty brutal to opposition . The US also backed Iraq in that bloody war in the 80's . I think the memories these guys have go way too far back .
If you do a strike on them they close the gulf of Hormuz and although very little oil comes from that area to the US you'll certainly get the Asians upset.
Sanctions would work if you could get the Russians and Chinese on side not just in name. Remember these guys have overthrown bad govt's before and will again but you have to take the common uniting thread out of the the equation .

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-28-2007, 02:55 PM

How do you suggest to get Russia and China to sanction them when they enjoy supporting them with military hardware and support at the loss of other nations blood?

I mean how can anyone support Iran when they openly wish to have the mass destruction and death of Israel?

pbfoot · 10-28-2007, 03:52 PM

It's a vicious circle isn't it , the only place I can think to start would be a fair and equitable land settlement with self gov't for the palestinians and thats just the first building block. The only thing a military strike will do is strengthen the resolve of the Iranians much like the bombing of Britain and Germany and Japan did in ww2

mkloby · 10-28-2007, 03:56 PM

Adler - You and I agree on this case.

PB - you have good points. The threat that would be posed by a nuclear Iran, however, is what needs to be addressed. I'm afraid that that is what needs to be paramount. Sanctions can, and should, be attempted first. Getting Russia and China on board would be crucial for it to work - and I don't believe that will be possible. The Chinese and Russians will likely cloak their own agendas under the notion of national sovereignty and Iran's right to pursue peaceful nuclear power.

The clock will continue to tick all the while the Persians continue their program. What do you do next? This can't be delayed forever - because one day we will wake up to the news that Iran has successfully tested a nuclear weapon.

mkloby · 10-28-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

It's a vicious circle isn't it , the only place I can think to start would be a fair and equitable land settlement with self gov't for the palestinians and thats just the first building block. The only thing a military strike will do is strengthen the resolve of the Iranians much like the bombing of Britain and Germany and Japan did in ww2

I agree with you that it will increase hostility within the nation to the west. The overriding objective in the short term must be to stop them from going nuclear. If their ability to develop a nuclear weapon is destroyed, then so be it if other peaceful means to stop their program have failed.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-28-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

It's a vicious circle isn't it , the only place I can think to start would be a fair and equitable land settlement with self gov't for the palestinians and thats just the first building block.

That will still accomplish nothing. The Palestinians and Arabs will continue to attack Israel until they hand over the whole country. Israel will not do so and rightfully so. Even if they did so give a portian to Palestine the Iranians will still strive at nothing less than the destruction of Israel. It is in there constitution for christs sake.

There is more to this than just the land of Israel and Palestine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

The only thing a military strike will do is strengthen the resolve of the Iranians much like the bombing of Britain and Germany and Japan did in ww2

The only thing to do at a barking dog is to bark back. When it bites you bite back as well.

pbfoot · 10-28-2007, 05:27 PM

Remember I've got 6 months in the Middle East as well spent some time in Damascus as that is where our aircraft staged through on my way to the Golan Heights and both sides are nasty pieces of work ..Your analogy of the barking dog is probably the mind set of the Iranians as well even if it is incorrect in our minds. But something has to change otherwise we are going in ever decreasing circles so I don't see what can be lost by not trying to change the root cause of the whole grudgef##k.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-28-2007, 05:41 PM

I am firm believer that the side that wish's to see the death of millions (Iran) is the one that has to waiver and show good faith or they will get nothing in return.

Same with the Palestinians. They will never achieve what they wish by killing innocent women and children.