Did M4 Carbine Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault? - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

javlin · 10-11-2009, 08:14 PM

Yea TO the 5.56 is about 400-500 ft/s faster but when you can get a 150g .308 going 2400 ft/s and less drift in wind I don't know.Now I thought that one of the reasons for the smaller cailbre was to wound more than kill.Make the enemy(his comrades) tend to wounded on the field (and this could just be old lore).The enemy we have now could care less about the guy beside him I think.

Butters · 10-11-2009, 08:18 PM

Les,

Are there any Western assault rifles/carbines that you think are a match (per reliability/durability) for the AK? I know that the Isreali Galil is based upon the the Kalishnikov design philosphy. Have you ever had a chance to handle one of those?

JL

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-11-2009, 09:05 PM

For "western weapons", I really enjoy the G-36.

I hear that some Spec Ops are replacing the M-4 with the HK-416 which is an improved M-4 with a new redesigned bolt systme that reduces jams and malfunctions.

Vassili Zaitzev · 10-11-2009, 10:38 PM

Maybe the G-36 should replace the M-4. What rounds do the G-36 fire?

javlin · 10-11-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vassili Zaitzev

Maybe the G-36 should replace the M-4. What rounds do the G-36 fire?

The same as the M-4 the 5.56 or .223 for some.I do not know and it probably has changed but I thought I heard that the armour(bullet vest) was basically made to stop a 5.56 rd but not the .308 so much?any enligthment out there?

Milosh · 11-09-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Sounds like overheating more than dirt that caused the weapons to stop working.

Amsel · 11-09-2009, 07:09 PM

LWRC has fixed the main issue with the M-4 with its new self-regulating short-stroke gas-piston system. Well besides the weak penetration and stopping power of the 5.56 itself, LWRC has made the M-4 a much better piece. I really like the m-10 version though, utilizing the .308.

I wonder why the government doesn't look into using an improved gas-piston system.

Clay_Allison · 11-09-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amsel

LWRC has fixed the main issue with the M-4 with its new self-regulating short-stroke gas-piston system. Well besides the weak penetration and stopping power of the 5.56 itself, LWRC has made the M-4 a much better piece. I really like the m-10 version though, utilizing the .308.

I wonder why the government doesn't look into using an improved gas-piston system.

Trying to do anything different or replace anything puts you into a world of hurt with all of the layers of bureaucratic oversight that have been added since the original contract has been signed. Why did the F-16 cost 15 million and the F-35 cost 83 mil? ISO 9000 and layers of corrupt bureaucracy.

renrich · 11-18-2009, 07:08 PM

Aside from the stopping power of the round, wouldn't the problem of jamming with the M4 and the M16 compared to the AK be because the manufacturing tolerances of the AK are substantially more loose than the AR designs. The US weapons may be more accurate than the AK, but in a close quarters fire fight with lots of firing who needs good accuracy? I am just speculating for I am an M1 Garand guy.

Clay_Allison · 11-18-2009, 07:44 PM

We have an inferior weapon that no one cares about because there isn't enough lobby to replace it. Colt's connections outweigh the arguments against the poor stopping power of the 5.56 from a short barrel and the unreliability of the shortened version of the M16 gas system.

Theo · 11-18-2009, 07:50 PM

I recently read the same thing about the British SA80 rifle.

MoD under pressure to abandon SA-80 rifle

tomo pauk · 11-20-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

So the Minimi fired 600 rds before jamming. I'd say that's a huge amount for an air-cooled weapon.

Clay_Allison · Today, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

So the Minimi fired 600 rds before jamming. I'd say that's a huge amount for an air-cooled weapon.

The M249 is actually a good gun.

10-11-2009, 08:14 PM	#16
javlin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: MS Posts: 800	Yea TO the 5.56 is about 400-500 ft/s faster but when you can get a 150g .308 going 2400 ft/s and less drift in wind I don't know.Now I thought that one of the reasons for the smaller cailbre was to wound more than kill.Make the enemy(his comrades) tend to wounded on the field (and this could just be old lore).The enemy we have now could care less about the guy beside him I think. __________________ There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload". A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go. "We don't want war. Nor will we tolerate slavery." "A free man would rather die on his feet than live on his knees."

10-11-2009, 09:05 PM	#18
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	For "western weapons", I really enjoy the G-36. I hear that some Spec Ops are replacing the M-4 with the HK-416 which is an improved M-4 with a new redesigned bolt systme that reduces jams and malfunctions. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

10-11-2009, 10:38 PM	#19
Vassili Zaitzev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Stafford Springs, Connecticut Posts: 2,221	Maybe the G-36 should replace the M-4. What rounds do the G-36 fire? __________________ "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"- Winston Churchill.

11-09-2009, 07:09 PM	#22
Amsel Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,738	LWRC has fixed the main issue with the M-4 with its new self-regulating short-stroke gas-piston system. Well besides the weak penetration and stopping power of the 5.56 itself, LWRC has made the M-4 a much better piece. I really like the m-10 version though, utilizing the .308. I wonder why the government doesn't look into using an improved gas-piston system. __________________ 'Live Free or Die'

11-18-2009, 07:44 PM	#25
Clay_Allison Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 925	We have an inferior weapon that no one cares about because there isn't enough lobby to replace it. Colt's connections outweigh the arguments against the poor stopping power of the 5.56 from a short barrel and the unreliability of the shortened version of the M16 gas system. __________________ It's always easy to find reasons why something shouldn't be done, the trick is to find ways to get it done. -- claidemore

10-11-2009, 08:18 PM	#17
Butters Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: South Shore of Nova Scotia Posts: 305	Les, Are there any Western assault rifles/carbines that you think are a match (per reliability/durability) for the AK? I know that the Isreali Galil is based upon the the Kalishnikov design philosphy. Have you ever had a chance to handle one of those? JL

11-18-2009, 07:08 PM	#24
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Aside from the stopping power of the round, wouldn't the problem of jamming with the M4 and the M16 compared to the AK be because the manufacturing tolerances of the AK are substantially more loose than the AR designs. The US weapons may be more accurate than the AK, but in a close quarters fire fight with lots of firing who needs good accuracy? I am just speculating for I am an M1 Garand guy.

11-18-2009, 07:50 PM	#26
Theo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 19	I recently read the same thing about the British SA80 rifle. MoD under pressure to abandon SA-80 rifle

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