UK Defence is £35bn in the red and kit is faulty - Aircraft of World War II

Colin1 · 10-16-2009, 02:34 PM

By James Kirkup
Political Correspondent
Daily Telegraph 16th October 2009

The Ministry of Defence, which is £35bn over its equipment budget, is still failing to provide troops on the front line with the right kit, a government review says.

Bernard Gray, a former Labour adviser who studied the MoD procurement plan, found Britain could not afford all the ships, armoured vehicles and aircraft that have been ordered. The programme of defence equipment and vehicles is "unaffordable on any likely projection of future budgets" he says in a 300-page report published yesterday. The MoD system of ordering and paying for equipment and vehicles creates a "systematic incentive" for officials and military chiefs to underestimate severely the financial cost of the project, Mr Gray said.

When the inevitable overspend arises, the MoD responds by trying to delay delivery of the equipment. The result is that the average procurement project is five years behind schedule and £300million over budget, he calculates. The total overspend on the current order book will reach £35billion.

The report says procurement problems are undermining military operations.

The failure to provide the right equipment on budget and on time has increased the danger to troops, Mr Gray says. Without radical reform, the danger to British troops will grow, as enemies find ways to exploit soldiers' lack of appropriate kit.

Mr Gray says squabbling between the Army, Navy and Air Force also contributes to the problems with equipment. The defence budget is likely to be reduced next year, regardless of who wins the next election. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to holding a strategic defence review in the next Parliament.

When that review comes , Mr Gray says Britain will have to choose between being able to conduct major, state-of-the-art warfare and smaller, 'intervention' missions in places such as Afghanistan and Kosovo.

Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, said: "The Government has presided over a decade of overstretch and spiralling costs without being straight with the public about the consequences".

Lord Drayson, the Defence Procurement Minister, did not challenge Mr Gray's conclusions, "This is pretty stark" he said. However, the Government rejected Mr Gray's call to hand defence procurement over to the private sector.

The MoD said: "We are not convinced that such a change would ultimately lead to better outcomes for the Armed Forces or defence generally".

lesofprimus · 10-16-2009, 02:37 PM

Whoa......

Airframes · 10-16-2009, 03:01 PM

And of top of that, I've just heard that training for the Territorial Army is to cease for one year. As the TA is now fulfilling its role, and making up a large percentage of regular forces deployed in action, how are they going to be effective without ongoing training, and how will they retain those members 'at home', if there is nothing happening apart from the weekly 'drill night'??!!!

vikingBerserker · 10-17-2009, 10:04 AM

No training? Now there is an insane idea!

rochie · 10-17-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vikingBerserker

No training? Now there is an insane idea!

No, No it'll be airight the prime minister say's the T.A will train with the regular army before they are deployed

so no training for a year then a quick refresher course then of to afganistan

once again thank you very much Gorden Brown

Maximowitz · 10-17-2009, 10:58 AM

We could cut costs by replacing the entire UK armed forces with a large white flag.

rochie · 10-17-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximowitz

We could cut costs by replacing the entire UK armed forces with a large white flag.

dont give them any idea's

Lucky13 · 10-17-2009, 12:27 PM

Will take plenty of tea to figure this one out!

RabidAlien · 10-17-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximowitz

We could cut costs by replacing the entire UK armed forces with a large white flag.

Replace the UK armed forces with the French? How will that solve anything?

Maximowitz · 10-17-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RabidAlien

Replace the UK armed forces with the French? How will that solve anything?

Better food?

Lucky13 · 10-17-2009, 05:33 PM

I am NOT saying anything....

Colin1 · 10-17-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximowitz

We could cut costs by replacing the entire UK armed forces with a large white flag

Can we afford a large white flag?
I think there'd be alot of mileage in sending a stiffly-worded letter to the Italian CO informing him that he smells, his men smell and we're going to start shooting them. We could use the bribe money to buy some decent kit. Or a large white flag...

Ferdinand Foch · 10-21-2009, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximowitz

Better food?

I was thinking better wine, but that's works too.

Oh yeah Max, about "better" food, STAY AWAY FROM THE CHEESE!!! I don't care what they tell you, but do not eat the cheese!

jamierd · 10-21-2009, 03:14 AM

pretty sure the kits not faulty but then how would we know coz the troops dont have it its still in donnington

10-16-2009, 02:34 PM	#1
Colin1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1,759	UK Defence is £35bn in the red and kit is faulty By James Kirkup Political Correspondent Daily Telegraph 16th October 2009 The Ministry of Defence, which is £35bn over its equipment budget, is still failing to provide troops on the front line with the right kit, a government review says. Bernard Gray, a former Labour adviser who studied the MoD procurement plan, found Britain could not afford all the ships, armoured vehicles and aircraft that have been ordered. The programme of defence equipment and vehicles is "unaffordable on any likely projection of future budgets" he says in a 300-page report published yesterday. The MoD system of ordering and paying for equipment and vehicles creates a "systematic incentive" for officials and military chiefs to underestimate severely the financial cost of the project, Mr Gray said. When the inevitable overspend arises, the MoD responds by trying to delay delivery of the equipment. The result is that the average procurement project is five years behind schedule and £300million over budget, he calculates. The total overspend on the current order book will reach £35billion. The report says procurement problems are undermining military operations. The failure to provide the right equipment on budget and on time has increased the danger to troops, Mr Gray says. Without radical reform, the danger to British troops will grow, as enemies find ways to exploit soldiers' lack of appropriate kit. Mr Gray says squabbling between the Army, Navy and Air Force also contributes to the problems with equipment. The defence budget is likely to be reduced next year, regardless of who wins the next election. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to holding a strategic defence review in the next Parliament. When that review comes , Mr Gray says Britain will have to choose between being able to conduct major, state-of-the-art warfare and smaller, 'intervention' missions in places such as Afghanistan and Kosovo. Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, said: "The Government has presided over a decade of overstretch and spiralling costs without being straight with the public about the consequences". Lord Drayson, the Defence Procurement Minister, did not challenge Mr Gray's conclusions, "This is pretty stark" he said. However, the Government rejected Mr Gray's call to hand defence procurement over to the private sector. The MoD said: "We are not convinced that such a change would ultimately lead to better outcomes for the Armed Forces or defence generally". Last edited by Colin1; 10-16-2009 at 05:48 PM.

10-16-2009, 02:37 PM	#2
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 17,490	Whoa...... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

10-16-2009, 03:01 PM	#3
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,030	And of top of that, I've just heard that training for the Territorial Army is to cease for one year. As the TA is now fulfilling its role, and making up a large percentage of regular forces deployed in action, how are they going to be effective without ongoing training, and how will they retain those members 'at home', if there is nothing happening apart from the weekly 'drill night'??!!! __________________

10-17-2009, 10:04 AM	#4
vikingBerserker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,722	No training? Now there is an insane idea! __________________ "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it" "Those who dwell in the past, condemn the future"

10-17-2009, 10:58 AM	#6
Maximowitz Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: London, England. Posts: 838	We could cut costs by replacing the entire UK armed forces with a large white flag. __________________

10-17-2009, 12:27 PM	#8
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,125	Will take plenty of tea to figure this one out! __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

10-17-2009, 05:33 PM	#11
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,125	I am NOT saying anything.... __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

10-21-2009, 03:14 AM	#14
jamierd Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Glenrothes Scotland Posts: 289	pretty sure the kits not faulty but then how would we know coz the troops dont have it its still in donnington __________________ "It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." The Declaration of Arbroath C1320

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