Best NFL Quarterback of all times?

[Thorlifter]

That's a good point drgondog. A great team can make an average player look fantastic and, opposite that, a crap team can make a great player look average.

Case in point, do you think Emmitt Smith is the all time best running back? HELL NO. Emmitt shouldn't even be mentioned in the same conversation as Berry Sanders and Walter Payton. Those two guys got their yardage behind invisible offensive lines and Smith had tanks to run behind. Put Smith on the Bengals and he would have been a nice player to have, at best.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

That's a good point drgondog. A great team can make an average player look fantastic and, opposite that, a crap team can make a great player look average.

Case in point, do you think Emmitt Smith is the all time best running back? HELL NO. Emmitt shouldn't even be mentioned in the same conversation as Berry Sanders and Walter Payton. Those two guys got their yardage behind invisible offensive lines and Smith had tanks to run behind. Put Smith on the Bengals and he would have been a nice player to have, at best.

To me Jim Brown is the greatest. Having said that Emmitt had four dominant teams and still was productive at Arizona in his last year behind a terrible team. He started with a lousy team and finished his last several years with lousy teams. So I give Emmitt at least top three - and number one around the goal line.

Barry Sanders had a decent Detroit team that made the playoffs several times and always contended in their division. They never had a quarterback that could take them over the top. Walter played with some great Chicago teams also.

[Thorlifter]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Walter played with some great Chicago teams also.

Walter Payton played with only two great team. The 1985 and 86 Bears. In his 12 year career, the Bear's only won the division 4 years, and those were his last 4 years with the team.

Here is how they finished during Walters career.

Year W L T Finished
1987 11 4 0 1st
1986 14 2 0 1st
1985 15 1 0 1st
1984 10 6 0 1st
1983 8 8 0 2nd
1982 3 6 0 11th
1981 6 10 0 5th
1980 7 9 0 3rd
1979 10 6 0 2nd
1978 7 9 0 3rd
1977 9 5 0 2nd
1976 7 7 0 2nd
1975 4 10 0 3rd

If you take away the last 4 years, which were good teams plus a SuperBowl victory, those Bears only had 2 winning seasons. Those were not good teams.

IMO, Emmitt wouldn't even be in the top 5. I would put all these guys before Smith. In no order..........

Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Gale Sayers
OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson

Now, I would put Smith in with some other very good backs like Thurman Thomas, Marshall Faulk, and Marcus Allen. I think that's some pretty good company.

[timshatz]

Didn't read anything but the list before voting for Joe Montana. He really was amazing. Not so much his speed or arm, just his ability to win. It's amazing but other QBs had better arms (Fouts, Farve, Elway are examples) and some were much better of their feet (Cunningham comes to mind right away) but Joe just knew how to win.

That and the fact the guy never got down. He just kept playing.

War Story Time- They were playing the Eagles back in about 1990. The Eagles were all over the 9ers in the First Qtr, up about ten points. Finally, they bum rushed Joe when he was on his own goal line and got a safety. The Eagles were hugely pumped, jumping up and down as they headed back to their sidelines. The TV flashed over to Montana as he is sitting in the end zone. He had this look of something between being ed and amused, but somewhat unaffected.

Saw that and I knew the Birds were screwed.

Long story short, the 9ers won the game. All because of Joe. Any other QB and the Eagles were home free. Not Joe.

[Njaco]

Tim, I remember that game very well and saw the same thing. We couldn't beat them until Charlie Garner years later.

Some QBs had great arms, some had great speed, some were just good generals. Joe had it all and watching him was amazing.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Of course it is a team sport but you can rate each Quarterback off of his individual talent. You could do this for any player (I will do so this weekend). Besides it starts up good conversation about a sport I love (when there does not seem to be very many Football fans on this forum ).

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Tim, I remember that game very well and saw the same thing. We couldn't beat them until Charlie Garner years later.

Some QBs had great arms, some had great speed, some were just good generals. Joe had it all and watching him was amazing.

Yeah man, when Joe was on it was a treat to watch him. Especially when we were dealing with "Head Case" Randall Cunningham. Great talent matched by an equally underdeveloped character.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

Walter Payton played with only two great team. The 1985 and 86 Bears. In his 12 year career, the Bear's only won the division 4 years, and those were his last 4 years with the team.

Here is how they finished during Walters career.

Year W L T Finished
1987 11 4 0 1st
1986 14 2 0 1st
1985 15 1 0 1st
1984 10 6 0 1st
1983 8 8 0 2nd
1982 3 6 0 11th
1981 6 10 0 5th
1980 7 9 0 3rd
1979 10 6 0 2nd
1978 7 9 0 3rd
1977 9 5 0 2nd
1976 7 7 0 2nd
1975 4 10 0 3rd

If you take away the last 4 years, which were good teams plus a SuperBowl victory, those Bears only had 2 winning seasons. Those were not good teams.

IMO, Emmitt wouldn't even be in the top 5. I would put all these guys before Smith. In no order..........

Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Gale Sayers
OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson

Now, I would put Smith in with some other very good backs like Thurman Thomas, Marshall Faulk, and Marcus Allen. I think that's some pretty good company.

Which criteria do you want to use for 'great'? Toughness, championships, number of 100 yard games, huge production in critical gamess, touchdowns, longevity? Playing for someone else but the Cowboys?

If the above criteria are used individually and collectively who do you rank above Emmitt for
a.) production
b.) dependability and longevity
c.) peak performance in critical games
d.) championships
e.) level of competition

The latter is a huge intangible but look at the size and quickness of the d lineman, linebackers and D backs in contrast to Dikerson, Simpson, Sayers and Brown eras.

If you like different criteria for Best what are they?

[Thorlifter]

For running backs I look at it this way.......

1st - What was the individual able to accomplish in their career.
2nd - What kind of team did they have around them to enable the quality of their career.
3rd - What could that person do AFTER they got the ball (Speed, break tackles, run routes, block, etc)

Perfect example is Emmitt.
1st - Easy, all time most yards, thus, ranks high
2nd - All stars from end to end and the biggest O-line ever (at the time). Sure makes it easier to run when the holes are 3 yards wide. To me, this takes away from Emmitt but was a plus to Barry because of his bad O-line. That monster line Dallas had could have made any running back look great.
3rd - Emmitt could do just about everything well. So I rank him high. I don't think the company I put him in from my other post puts him in bad company.

Given "my criteria", Emmitt would rank lower than the other runners I listed. But I must say, I really don't know much about the lines and teams that Sayers and Brown played with.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

For running backs I look at it this way.......

1st - What was the individual able to accomplish in their career.
2nd - What kind of team did they have around them to enable the quality of their career.
3rd - What could that person do AFTER they got the ball (Speed, break tackles, run routes, block, etc)

Perfect example is Emmitt.
1st - Easy, all time most yards, thus, ranks high
2nd - All stars from end to end and the biggest O-line ever (at the time). Sure makes it easier to run when the holes are 3 yards wide. To me, this takes away from Emmitt but was a plus to Barry because of his bad O-line. That monster line Dallas had could have made any running back look great.
3rd - Emmitt could do just about everything well. So I rank him high. I don't think the company I put him in from my other post puts him in bad company.

Given "my criteria", Emmitt would rank lower than the other runners I listed. But I must say, I really don't know much about the lines and teams that Sayers and Brown played with.

The key with the latter two is Sayers blew out a knee and had one more year for six total. Bright star that went away. Jim Brown was a man among boys relatively speaking and quit because pro football (after nine years) didn't pay like hollywood.

Barry Sanders would have probably gained more than Emmitt but quit before his time... Emmitt and Walter are the same runners, same heart. Both controlled the fourth quarter and the clock and punched in touchdowns in the red zone.

To me Emmitt is all about the Giant/Cowboy playoff game when Emmitt wouldn't sit down with a separated shoulder and ran for 160 plus 9 catches to help the Cowboys control the ball and win.

That is why I can't pick between the three on my own criteria.

[Njaco]

Besides Herschel Walker, Emmitt is the ONLY Cowboy I've admired the last 30 - 40 years.

Especially when we were dealing with "Head Case" Randall Cunningham. Great talent matched by an equally underdeveloped character.

Boy, ain't that the truth! But I still like along with all the rest of those Eagles from the early 90s.

[SoD Stitch]

Definitely Joe. Even Madden, who's seen them all, the good, the bad, and the great, says Joe was probably the best QB of all time. He had grace under pressure, which saved the 9'ers more than a few times; Super Bowl XXIII comes to mind. Like you all have already said, he didn't have the greatest throwing arm, and he knew that, which is part of the reason the so-called "West Coast Offense" was created by Walsh & Montana; but he played with his head, and won games he probably should've lost.

[Doughboy]

Joe Montana....He won 4 superbowls(that is all the reason I need).

[renrich]

I believe that Otto Graham ought to be on the list. He played ten years, four in the AAFC and six in the NFL, led his team to either the division or league championship all ten years. His lifetime stats were: completed 1464 of 2626 passes for 23,584 yards, 174 TDs and 135 intercepts. His career passer rating is 86.6 and he also was a good runner, scoring a number of TDs and played when the QBs got hit.

[Amsel]

I had to vote for Roger the Dodger. Steve Young is one of the greatest along with Montana of course.