Ace on Ace Kills

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262.

Nice bit of shooting, getting to kill 1 each of the 3 main German fighters. Just missed the Me 163.

[T4.H]

I know, that Hartmann shot down several russian aces...

Next time, I have the book on another place.

[lesofprimus]

Hauptmann Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert (145 kills)

shot down and killed, on 16 April 1943 Tunisia, Spitfire Ace and Leader of 244 Wing, Wing Commander Ian Gleed (15 kills).....

[lesofprimus]

Major Helmut Wick (56 kills)

was shot down and killed, 28 Nov 1940 Isle of Wight, by Flt. Lt. John Dundas (16 Kills) No: 609 Squadron ... Having despatched Major Wick, John Dundas was shot down amd killed by Wick's wing-man Rudolf Flanz.... Both men were lost...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Treize

Legend says Ralph Hofer was shot down by Erich Hartmann, but since "The Kidd" went down over Hungary and Jg-52 was flying over Romania at the time, I don't really buy it, though Hofer was in fact the only 8th AAF ace to go down in a2a combat and not to ground fire.

Oops, the 4th FG had at least 5 aces down in air to air that I can think of including Carpenter, Sobanski, McGrattan, Bennett, Edner, Lang plus McPharlin (339) who was a 4th ace flying with 4th on D-Day when he was KIA w/Sobanski and McGrattan - three aces in one flight, and one fight. I could dig up more, perhaps.

Adams and Browning for 357FG come to mind, there are more there also. Mahurin was shot down by Do 217 gunner.

I also don't buy it for the simple overly-coincidental aspect of two young aces both called "The Kid" (well, "Bubi", but its the German equivalent) meeting in the air and fighting to the death. Plus I think the story would have made it into one of Hartmanns autobiographies, not just confined to books on the 4th.

Hofer is still a mystery. Hively last saw him over Budapest in a big fight there, but he went down at an airbase at Molstar, Yugoslavia ~ 200 miles away.

Regards,

Bill

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by RATHED

Hi. I am knew to the Forum, but will take the liberty to sugest a topic: How about histories of confirmed cases of kills in aerial combats involving Known aces? I mean, cases in which a US ace shootdown a German ace, for example.

These are difficult to prove but I can offer some examples.

April 19, 1944 - Bob Woody (354FS/355FG) - 7air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Otto Wessling near Eschwege.

April 24, 1944 - Gerald Dix (355FG HQ) 4 air/1.5 ground, or Hank Bille (357FS/355FG) 6 air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Franz Schwaiger near Regensburg

April 24, 1944 - Henry Brown (354FS/355FG) 14.2 air/14.5 ground, probably shot down II./JG3 Gruppen Kommander Hermann Frieherr Kapp-herr near Munich. Aces Fortier (5.83 air/5.5 ground) and Woody also scored 109s in same area that Kapp went down.

July 28, 1944 - James McElroy (358FS/355FG) 5 air/6 ground did shoot down JG300 Ernst Erich Hirschfeld near Erfurt

August 16, 1944 - Either John Elder -8air/13 ground, or Bill Cullerton 5air/15 ground, shot down JG3 Ltn Buschmann near Hildescheim.

Dix was a combined air/ground ace. Walter Gresahm, also w/4 air and three ground probably shot down Egon Mayer on 2 March, 1944 SE of Charleroi. I have that combat film.

Regards,

Bill

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

it does not make sense anyway because of the theater of ops for JG 52, E.H. shot down 15th AF fighters not 8th

Erich this was during the first Shuttle Mission cycle from 21 June June 27. Hofer and several others were forced to abort from mission on 26 June out of Piryatin. He rejoined 4th at Foggia on 30 June and flew out of Foggia on the 2nd of July for his last mission.

Last seen climbing to engae 18-20 Me 109s over Budapest, and wreckage and body near QP-X at airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia - 200 miles away.

Last speculation was airfield flak