 | Hans Ulrich Rudel, Tank Destroyer...| Stories Discuss Hans Ulrich Rudel, Tank Destroyer... in the World War II - Aviation forums; actually there were many panzerstaffel aces. SG 1, 2, 3 and 77 each had a 10.(Pz) staffel equipped with ... |
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12-21-2004, 06:40 PM
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#31 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,985
Country:  | actually there were many panzerstaffel aces. SG 1, 2, 3 and 77 each had a 10.(Pz) staffel equipped with the G variant, Rudel being the top scorer. I personally beleived becasue of his noteriety as a propaganda tool that many of his kills were done by other men of his staffel. This appears correct as night fighter ace Kurt Welter is given the proposed claim of 29 mosquitos knocked down and even in the so-called offical claims listing he is egioven bountiful credit flying the single seat 262 at night. Reality is another story as the man flew seldom from February 45 onward doing administrative work and incorporating new pilots in the skills they would need to fly the 262 at night. Welter was a propaganda tool extrodinaire, even a myth surrounds his Bronze Ritterkreuz decorated to him.
Reagrdless the trueness covering these two mens lives will never be known.......... | 
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12-22-2004, 01:07 PM
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#32 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | What I find kind of curious is the fact only German aces are subjected to these processes of doubt and scrutiny.
I seriously doubt ALL (100%) the Me262 claims made by USAAF fighter pilots in clean dogfights, just as there are cases of such claims.
I have guncamera footage of USAAF fighters hitting the Me262; all the shots have one thing in common: the Schwalbe with the tricycle landing gear down, in the process of landing; in some of the shots you can even see the paved runway and even cars in the background.
Ivan Kozhedub was as well, a very powerful propaganda tool of the USSR, and so far, I have never known of any historians suggesting his total bag might have been inflated.
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12-22-2004, 01:13 PM
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#33 | | He who does not skim
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,957
Country:  | As I seem to recall reading somewhere, Pokryshkin may have been one to have openly disputed Kozhedub's total score. | |
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12-22-2004, 02:45 PM
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#34 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:  | can you put that film on the interent for downloads??
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
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12-22-2004, 04:03 PM
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#35 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country:  | That would be very interesting to watch, id certainly take the time to download it.
__________________  with my one last gaping breath id apologise for bleeding on your shirt... | |
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12-22-2004, 04:17 PM
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#36 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | Hello cutties:
I acquired my guncamera footage collection in Mother Russia in 1999.
Perhaps I can do it, the question is: how do I do that if I have it all on CD?
Make fun on me if you want, but I am not that "hi-tech" in the music/video editing business.
A few weks ago I had some file zipped showing dozens of shots where IL-2 Shturmoviks are getting shot to smithereens by German fighters guncamera, but it got screwed...hell, do not know how that happened.
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In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong. | |
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12-22-2004, 04:22 PM
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#37 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country: | Im sorry but I dont know how to 
Shame about the IL2 footage, that would have been interesting too.
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12-22-2004, 04:27 PM
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#38 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | The German guncamera footage showed me on how over-inflated the Il-2 is.
If the massive boxes of heavy bombers of the 8th and 15th Air Force (all those hundreds of .50 cal machine guns included) were very vulnerable against the German fighters, try to imagine the fate of formations of several dozens of Il-2īs fitted with one rear defensive gun.
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In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong. | |
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12-22-2004, 04:30 PM
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#39 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country: | Ouch...that would be bad
__________________ with my one last gaping breath id apologise for bleeding on your shirt... | |
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12-22-2004, 05:52 PM
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#40 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,952
Country: | I have said this before, and shall repeat it again.. Although heavily armored, more so for AA fire than a fighters cannons, the Il2's were easy prey for a verteran Luftwaffe ace, as most of the kill totals of the leading German aces will testify....
Here are the last 67 victories that Otto Kittel Had on the Eastern Front....
200 26.8.1944 13:54 La-5 3./JG 54 LH-4.4: at 150m
201 27.8.1944 13:06 Il-2 3./JG 54 LF-9.7: at 2.000m
202 28.8.1944 11:24 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-5.8: at 3.000m
203 28.8.1944 11:26 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-6.2: at 3.000m
204 28.8.1944 11:27 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-3.7: at 1.800m
205 31.8.1944 17:46 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-3.2: at 700m [W Mitau]
206 31.8.1944 17:47 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-3.4: at 600m [W Mitau]
207 31.8.1944 17:49 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-6.3: at 500m [W Mitau]
208 14.9.1944 10:40 Yak-9 2./JG 54 68 124: at 1.600m
209 14.9.1944 10:53 Yak-9 2./JG 54 68 156: at 1.200m
210 14.9.1944 14:50 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 251: at 500m
211 14.9.1944 14:51 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 254: at 500m
212 14.9.1944 14:52 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 258: at 300m
213 14.9.1944 14:54 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 253: at 800m
214 15.9.1944 15:39 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 377: at 400m
215 15.9.1944 15:40 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 495: at 200m
216 16.9.1944 17:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 518: at 200m
217 17.9.1944 8:39 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 383: at 2.500m
218 17.9.1944 8:40 P-39 2./JG 54 47 389: at 1.800m
219 17.9.1944 8:41 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 522: at 1.500m
220 20.9.1944 11:10 Yak-9 2./JG 54 47 324: at 1.500m
221 20.9.1944 11:12 Yak-9 2./JG 54 47 327: at 600m
222 22.9.1944 10:15 La-5 2./JG 54 47 323: at 3.200m
223 28.9.1944 11:30 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 264: at 1.800m
224 28.9.1944 11:30 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 291: at 1.800m
225 28.9.1944 11:37 Pe-2 2./JG 54 57 181: at 1.800m
226 28.9.1944 11:38 Yak-9 2./JG 54 57 184: at 1.200m
227 30.9.1944 11:35 Yak-9 2./JG 54 57 174: at 1.200m
228 30.9.1944 11:36 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 268: at 1.200m
229 30.9.1944 11:38 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 154: at 150m
230 7.10.1944 15:10 Yak-9 2./JG 54 48 697: at 1.200m
231 9.10.1944 8:55 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 782: at 300m
232 9.10.1944 8:56 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 765: at 200m
233 9.10.1944 8:58 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 789: at 50m
234 9.10.1944 13:02 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 241: at 800m
235 9.10.1944 13:04 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 271: at 200m
236 10.10.1944 9:11 La-5 2./JG 54 47 139: at 400m
237 10.10.1944 9:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 131: at 100m
238 10.10.1944 9:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 131: at 100m
239 14.10.1944 11:02 La-5 2./JG 54 16 832: at 3.200m
240 16.10.1944 11:02 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 345: at 200m
241 16.10.1944 11:04 La-5 2./JG 54 37 329: at 1.200m
242 16.10.1944 14:26 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 343: at 600m
243 16.10.1944 14:28 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 388: at 200m
244 17.10.1944 13:17 La-5 2./JG 54 37 554
245 18.10.1944 13:36 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 582: at 700m
246 18.10.1944 13:37 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 554: at 700m
247 22.10.1944 15:50 Yak-3 2./JG 54 17 646: at 2.000m
248 27.10.1944 9:50 Yak-9 2./JG 54 27 647: at 3.500m
249 27.10.1944 9:51 Yak-9 2./JG 54 27 565: at 3.500m
250 27.10.1944 9:57 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 625: at 3.000m
251 27.10.1944 11:48 Pe-2 2./JG 54 17 485: at 2.500m
252 27.10.1944 11:50 Pe-2 2./JG 54 27 543: at 1.000m
253 27.10.1944 13:24 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 574
254 27.10.1944 13:32 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 651: at 600m
255 29.10.1944 9:42 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 488: at 10m
256 29.10.1944 9:45 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 491: at 15m
257 29.10.1944 11:57 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 624: at 500m
258 29.10.1944 12:09 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 497: at 700m
259 29.10.1944 12:10 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 623: at 600m
260 29.10.1944 12:11 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 628: at 600m
261 30.10.1944 13:22 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 541: at 1.000m
262 30.10.1944 13:52 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 489: at 600m
263 30.10.1944 15:26 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 622: at 900m
264 19.11.1944 11:40 La-5 2./JG 54 29 754
265 1945 - E/a 2./JG 54 -
266 1945 - E/a 2./JG 54 -
267 14.2.1945 - Il-2 2./JG 54 Dzukste
Easy pickings..... Guaranteed, the Il-2/M3 had different tank-busting battlefield tactics than the Ju-87G.... But the loss rate for those Ju-87G's was ALOT lower than the loss rate for those armored Il-2's...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
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12-23-2004, 07:11 AM
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#41 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country: | Possibly because there were a lot less of them?
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12-23-2004, 11:05 AM
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#42 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,043
| Still, though, the ratio of those that fought and those that were lost is not even comparable to the IL-2's!
(Still speaking of tankbusters, not regular models) | |
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12-23-2004, 01:38 PM
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#43 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,952
Country: | This is a fact..... I think the big thing was that the pilots flying the Ju-87G's were more qualified than the Il-2M pilots.... U didnt have a kid just off the train jumping in and knockin tanks out with the 37mm.....
__________________ "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
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12-23-2004, 04:27 PM
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#44 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country: | Good point...
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05-25-2005, 07:35 PM
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#45 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 1,886
Country:  | Images from the Marat after the Rudels attack on 23 september 1941, only the shallow waters of Kronstad saved her to be acomplete loss.  | 
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