Pierre H. Clostermann, Leading French Ace

[Maestro]

Greetings ladies and gentlemen,

I found the Clostermann's story over the internet. Hope you'll enjoy. (Pierre H. Clostermann... a French Ace with a German name, born in Brazil, and flying for the RAF... Could it be more messy ?)

33 victories total (14 individual).

Born in February 28th 1921 in Curitiba (Brazil). Initiated to flight by the German master Karl Benitz, he received his pilot licence in 1937. Enlisted in the Free French Forces in 1942 and assigned to Free French Forces 341 Squadron in January 1943. Sent to 602 Squadron in September 1943, then sent to the Tempest equiped 274 Squadron in January 1945. He is named Squadron Commander of the 56 Squadron in March and end the war with 3 Squadron.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

wow a french ace, i never knew they existed...................

[Maestro]

Yes, and why is he an ace ?

Because he is born outside of France !

[the lancaster kicks ass]

[GermansRGeniuses]

Ya know, I've never been to Curitiba...

YET.

[lesofprimus]

Heres some more info....

Pierre Clostermann was born on February 28 1921 at Curitiba, Brazil, where his father worked as a French diplomat. At an age of only sixteen he aquired his pilot's licence in November 1937. He was educated in Paris and studied engineering in USA when France fell...

In 1941 he joined the Free French Forces (341 "Alsace" Squadron). The following year he was transferred to RAF and 602 Squadron, where he served in Spitfire. During this time he destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft, 2 probable and seven damage.

On 4 March 1945 he joined No 274 Squadron and the Hawker Tempest. His first Tempest score was a Bf 109 on his second day during a "cannon test".
In the middle of March 1945 he was posted as a Flight commander to No 56 Squadron. With this unit he destroyed a Bf109 in the air. On 8 April he was transferred to No 3 Squadron as "A" Flight commander where he on 20 April scored two Fw 190D-9s'.
Clostermann's final score in Tempest is at least 12 destroyed, 6 shared and 2 probables . He was awarded the DSO and DFC and Bar in addition to French, Belgian and American decorations.

Final Total : 33 destroyed

19 FW-190
7 ME-109
2 Dornier 24
1 Fieseler 156
1 JU-252
1 JU-88
1 JU-290
1 Heinkel 111

On the ground he destroyed :

7 JU 88
6 DO-18
4 HE-177
2 Arado 323
1 JU-252
1 Blom-Voss

Add to it some 72 locomotives , 5 tanks , 1 submarine and 2 destroyers...

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i didn't realise he was in a british plane, I always think of a British ace having to fly a british plane, a german ace in a german plane and so on..............

[lesofprimus]

Well, the French didnt really have an airforce for a good bit of the war, so they had to fly somewhere, for someone....

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i wonder how well he'd have done in a french plane...........

[lesofprimus]

Not that well I'm sure...

[the lancaster kicks ass]

deafinatly not, but that's what i mean about flying planes from your own country.......................

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Greetings ladies and gentlemen,
I found the Clostermann's story over the internet. Hope you'll enjoy. (Pierre H. Clostermann... a French Ace with a German name, born in Brazil, and flying for the RAF... Could it be more messy ?)

Yea , just like H-J Marseille , a great German ace with a French name ( French protestants family that emigrated in Germany , Holland , Switzerland etc.. (we calll them Huguenot ) .. or the famous air strategist Claire Chennault ...

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

wow a french ace, i never knew they existed...................

By stating this , you don't seem to know anything at all obviously ... or is it that you resort to showing mediocrity when French are concerned ?

For your knowledge , the French Air Force did extremely well in WWII , they shot down more German planes in the air than they actually lost , more than 70% of the planes they lost was on the ground , read the figures ... .

They had to face a full strength Luftwaffe with inferior planes and huge numerical inferiority , i am not talking about the small Afrikakorps detachment that made British forces flee for 1 thousands kilometers while in overwhelming numerical superiority ... or the few dozens of submarines that nearly made you starve ... talking about full strength German army , not just small and poorly trained garnisons on the normandie shores with a couple of planes ... In 1940 , Germany is the strongest army in the world , in 1941 they are knocking at Moscow doors , from Crimea , Greece , Africa to France and Norway .. they conqueered all Europe .. after that German army is scattered everywhere and far weaker .

You make fun of French , but their biggest sin was to have land borders with Germany , and not safe on an island , had it been your people , it would have been even worse , seeing how British troops were fleeing at Calais in June 1940 , more concerned about going back to UK than help the French to fight .... and France wasn't as vast and unconqueerable as USSR , nor as much populated and militarised (Stalinism ) to sustain a long war effort .

Germany as a totalitarian regime , could field 7 millions men to attack USSR , France as a democracy where people are free , could field at best 1 million men in 1940 , it was also the first time the Blitzkrieg tactics were used .

Anyhow , back on your statement , obviously as a senior member of an aviation forum (note that the word Aviation was invented by the French , it's a French word as much as you seem to despise it ) you should know about the fathers of aviation , Louis Bleriot , Henri Farnan or Clément Ader !!!??? or figures like Rolland Garros ? Classics ...........


Talking about French aces , what about René Fonck ( 75 victories , 5 less than Manfred von Richthofen , the difference is that Fonck was actually skilled/lucky enough to survive ) or Georges Guynemer (53 vctories ) or Georges Madon ???!!
France has one of the longest list of Aces during WWI and was building some of the best planes at the time until the 1930's ,and is nowdays building incredible planes (Mirage - 5 , Rafale etc.. ) FYI ....

What about the Normandie Niemen squadron with aces like Marcel Albert or Roger Sauvage ??!! the Normandie Niemen was one of the most succesful Allied squadron of the war while having only a handful of pilots , even after the war Stalin granted them 33 Yaks personally in recognition .


In the RAF aces besides Clostermann , what about Jean Demozay(21) , Edmond Marin dela Meslée (20) or Pierre le Gloan (18 ) ???
FYI , Free French Force sent about 700 pilots , and the amount of French Ace compared to only 700 pilots is quite amazing from a neutral point view , not from a French xenophob view of course .


By the way , something that the French invented in 1930's , which is the Echellonement , if you attended naval courses , you would know that , was Very useful and effective to fight the Luftwaffe on the Eastern front , such tactics were re-invented by the great ace Alexander Pokryshkin in the Eastern front and proved extremely effective against Luftwaffe's superior planes in speed (Bf-109 Gustav and Focke Wulfs) .

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

i wonder how well he'd have done in a french plane...........

Actually , in 1940 , the Dewoitine D-520 was superior and at least equal to the Spitfire in performance ......

But of course you do not know that ..... Had they could produce planes during the war , French Dewoitines and Bloch wold have become above average , French avionics was very much advanced at the time . Hispano Suyza , Bloch , Breguet , Morane , Potez etc.. they had A LOT of plane manufacturer with Great Savoir-Faire , for example their ground attack plane , the Potez was very good at the time . The problem is that France , unlike Germany and Britain , did sufffer a war in her own territory in 1914-18 , and was unwilling before 1939 to prepare for a war , when Hitler was gathering at Nuremberg with hundred thousand of militarised youth people , French leaders were discussing the paid vacations and social care insurance and more freedom for women .....

The French with their British ally tried everything to avoid this war and the country in 1940 was not in "war economy" mode like Germany , France was 1 year late , ,so the airforce had to import outdated American P-36's and British Hurricanes to palliate the low number of home build planes , and to rely on their own "old" planes like the Morane which was outdated (1934-36 plane ) until the productivity increase , they pilots still had very good results in the air with it given the circumstances , they actually had some of the finest and hardest training on earth at the time (almost on par with Japanese Navy pilots ) and could overcome their aircrafts shortcomings (like the great Finnish pilots did ) .

[Erich]

I would suggest you get a little better attitude please ....... especially with this your first posting

[Janus]

I am sorry , Erich i apologize , but there is obviously an anti-French xenophobia in their post , and i thought if some French see it , it would just feel quite disappointed .

When you see this kind of posts without any argument in it , you want to react with energy and come with arguments , it is really not kind nor intelligent to post like this to slag a nation , be it the French , the Chinese or any other nation , especially since they are pioneers of aviation and this is the subject here .


But if i have offended anyone , please accept my apologies Erich .

[v2]

An interview with a Free Frenchman, Mr. Clostermann,
By Alexandre Jaeg

AJ: Hello Mr. Clostermann. Let's pass directly to the heart of the topic; what were the incentives, those of you and your colleagues, to volunteer for enlistment in the ranks of the FAFL, the Free French Air Force [les Forces Aęriennes Françaises Libres]?

PC: Well, in order to understand my response to this question, especially if you are a young Frenchman of today, it is necessary to realize that our generation experienced two major historical events: one was the war of 1939 to 1945; the other was the war in Algeria. I must say that for me and my colleagues studying at an American University at the time of the invasion of France the issue was straightforward. I am an Alsatian Frenchman as were several of my colleagues. Could we tolerate the German occupation of Paris? Aside from all philosophical and legal considerations for which the French had to answer the solution was simple for us: the Germans were in Paris, the Germans were in Strasbourg and for an Alsatian this meant that there was no alternative but to make war.
I did not possess the fundamental constitution to make war at the time; in fact, the main attraction for me was the thought that I might receive the opportunity to fly a Spitfire. I had taken flying lessons while studying engineering at the American University and I had achieved commercial piloting qualifications; therefore, at this time already I had a lot of flying hours but this was piloting simple planes. In my mind was the desire to step up to the experience of piloting a real thoroughbred of the skies, the Supermarine Spitfire.
I left the university immediately in order to enlist in the FAFL. My father left a week prior to my departure.

AJ: Was your father a military man?

PC: No, he was not in the military; he was in the diplomatic corps. He left with the French military attaché, Martial Valin, who soon became General Valin, Commander of Free French Air Forces. My father and Marshall Valin arrived in London within a few weeks.

My father wrote me a very beautiful letter that I have always kept. In his letter he explains that it is necessary to first take care of my mother and lady Valin and then to appreciate the opportunity before me, to volunteer to fight for one's homeland; this rarely occurs for a man just reaching his adult status in life. He emphasized in his letter how precious and important was this opportunity and that history by itself would not resolve the conflict and preserve the homeland; that only by the heroic actions of the homeland's young men and women would the land of our Heritage be preserved. He then urged me to travel to London as soon as possible after sending my mother and lady Valin off to Brazzaville [Congo]. Once in London he assured me that General Valin would assemble a FAFL squadron and that I could volunteer for this service or for flying duty in the RAF if the FAFL squadron was incorporated under the command of the RAF. I admit that I left for London with little enthusiasm for entering into hostilities.
Naturally, most of my friends expressed varied incentives for going to war. In France one often refers to the writings of François Labouchčre but I find that few read them unless specifically asked. He is often quoted as saying: "The most difficult aspect of defining one's duty is to actually perceive the correct path to take." I feel that this quote represents a shallow alibi for many especially those who have not read Labouchčre's complete essay. These individuals often express that they were caught up in the German invasion and had no time to act; therefore, their path was to remain at home and deal with whatever happened. If one reads Labouchčre's essay further he makes a strong argument for preservation of the homeland. He says that a responsible man must leave the comforts of home and enter into war against those that are invading, that this is the honorable path of duty.


In 1942 François Labouchčre was betrayed and killed by the enemy. I knew his mother and sisters after the war; they were exceptionally good people and they were very proud of François's sacrifice for the homeland. They were an old French family of considerable means, all lost in the war, and most of their possessions were never recovered but they remained proud nonetheless.

As for me personally my first priority was to pilot an aircraft. I reasoned that once I had traveled to England and joined up that the Free French pilots might become a significant force in the war.

One of my friends, Henri Mattey, arrived on base out of uniform. He was wearing a sweater over a canary yellow shirt with socks to match and when we stood in our initial formation Commander Mouchette reproached him soundly. Henri didn't miss the opportunity and responded, "Yes, my Commander, I am out of uniform, dressed as a civilian, but I am here because I want to wage war against our enemy. Uniformed soldiers here are not nearly as eager for this as me." And he was right! You know, we were only a small cohort but the role of the Français Libres [Free Frenchmen] was out of proportion to our actual numbers.

AJ: How many were you?

PC: We had 600 Free French volunteers in the aviation branch of which 300 more or less were fighter pilots. I am referring to the time long before June 1942 when the Americans landed in North Africa; thereafter, our numbers were less. By the time the Alsace squadron was formed in Biggin Hill in May 1942 we had only 60 or 70 fighter pilots remaining. Overall, out of the initial 2500 Free French volunteers we had lost 400 by May 1942.

If one reviews the unit citations of the early Free French volunteers one finds that the aviators received many citations and awards. The reason for this is simple. Aviators were constantly at war flying missions daily; whereas, the Army and Marine volunteers were not constantly in a combat situation. For example, between the landings at Bir Hakeim, Libya, and the invasion at Normandy the Army and Marine Free French Forces experienced little combat. In contrast, the aviators were flying missions almost daily especially the fighter pilots. During this 700 day period I arose between 0400 and 0500 hours in the summer and 0600 hours in the winter to be on the alert status by 0800 hours each day. There were holidays here and there sometimes three weeks in duration but regardless during this period of 700 days the fighter pilots flew approximately 400 missions. This is a grueling pace and it takes a toll on the individual pilot.

After the war I realized that this division of intensity of effort was in fact a good thing. There are two philosophical statements that I find relevant to this. The first is from Paul Valčry's writings and the second is from the writings of Andre Paul Guillaume Gide. Valčry wrote that "to every terrifying time in human history one always finds someone sitting aside documenting the events and inserting wisdom into the situation," and Gide once wrote "without stubborn unyielding men much of what we cherish would be destroyed; these men are the salt of the earth!" If you reflect a moment on the time of the Second World War this is exactly what happened. These brave unyielding men preserved our way of life, our freedoms; they were exceptional people and of those that survived most have succeeded in outstanding civilian career accomplishments. You understand that it is not necessary to have achieved a high military rank or to have earned an award of honor and valor in order to succeed in civilian life after a war but simply to have walked in the path of someone defending the homeland; that was sufficient. And what is even more extraordinary is that this duty did not only fall upon the shoulders of the nation's youth but it fell also upon the backs of our older citizens. For example, Pierre Louis-Dreyfus, grandson of Leopold Louis-Dreyfus who founded the global Louis-Dreyfus Industries, entered the Free French Forces at the age of 32 and piloted a Boston Bomber [Douglas DB-7 family, A-20] in the Lorraine Group. Pierre was, of course, a multimillionaire. He purchased 29 Boston Bombers from Douglas Aircraft as a gift to the RAF; in addition, he did not accept a cent of salary for his piloting duties. Pierre flew 45 low-altitude bombing missions.
In this same vein there was also Roger Martin Du Gard (1881-1958 ) who worked in the Lorraine Bomber Group; he is noted for winning the Nobel Prize in literature (1937) and was in his late fifties when he served. Then, among others that I shall not mention, there was also Henri Deplante who later assisted in the design of the Dassault Mirage Fighter and finally, I should recognize Pierre Mendčs-France who entered service at the age of 33 years.

(part 1 )