Boulton Paul type A (defiant) turret info request - Aircraft of World War II

illustratedman · 12-08-2008, 11:54 AM

Hi folks just found this forum, have already posted this question in several other forums but it seems that Boulton Paul turret info is rarer than hens teeth so had little luck so far. Have already found a ton of stuff on this forum that I couldn't find elsewhere so I'm hoping I'm in the right place. Apologies if you are also a member of those other forums and are now sick of me banging on about the Boulton Paul Defiant

I'm trying to make a 3d model of a Boulton Paul defiant, I have enough reasonable 4 views etc I think to model the aircraft but the turret is proving difficult to find reference pix of. I think I've got just about every image that you can from googling but really need blueprints, plans, cutaways or other more technical type drawings. The turret is a Boulton Paul type A. I have made a start by modelling the browning 303 but am already a bit stuck on reference for the firiing mechanism, some sort of solenoid or pneumatic trigger that might be fixed to the side plate or bottom - anyone have a better idea of what they look like when attached to the browning? Also can't really tell how the ammo is fed into the guns or how the links/cases are extracted - anyone know of any reference that shows this? I have one of the ecellent air ministry training films on dvd (the unseen films set) and have managed to grab a few frames from it but the areas I'm intersted in are tantalisingly indisctinct. I have the number for the correct air ministry publication that details boulton paul type A turrets (Air Publication Number AP1659C) but haven't been able to see a copy of it yet. When/if this model ever gets finished I had intended to do a series of renders focussing on the turret so I really need to make that part of the model as detailed as possible.

Any help would be gratefully received.
cheers
alex

Airframes · 12-08-2008, 12:35 PM

Hi Alex. from what you've described, it sounds like you already have the pics etc that I have somewhere. However, there is a publication covering British Gun turrets that could help, and also the book 'The Turret Fighters'. Sorry, can't remeber the author or publisher, but, coincidentally, I saw this was still in my local library only a week ago! I think there are some details of the turret in this book. Another source might be the R.A.F. Museum, Hendon, who have on display the only Defiant extant. Their research department might be able to help. There is also a collection of turrets, and assocated info, at the Yorkshire Air Museum, Elvington, near York. Although prossibly not exactly the same, the turret on the MkIII Halifax was a Boulton & Paul 4 gun turret, and the feed/ ejector mechanism etc will be very similar. I believe there is such a turret at Elvington, plus the Halifax of course, so a call/visit might provide what you are looking for.
Hope this helps a bit.
Terry.

illustratedman · 12-08-2008, 01:38 PM

Cheers Terry. I think I have the book you were thinkng of - RAF gun turrets from 1914 to the present day by R Wallace Clarke. Bought it on ebay hoping it would solve all my problems but dissapointing when it comes to Boulton Paul turrets, particularly (of course) the type A - a good book otherwise, especially if you are looking at Frazer Nash turrets. Also got 'Guns of the RAF 1939-1945 GF Wallace, which is a good read but poorly illustrated. I have emailled Hendon research bods so will see what they have to say. Didn't know about the turret at Elvington, cheers unlikely to get down there in the near future though due to workload.

cheers
alex

Airframes · 12-08-2008, 02:49 PM

No problem Alex. That book 'The Turret Fighters' might have the answers; if you think it might help, I can find the author/publisher details. Afraid I can't get to the library at the momemnt, I'm a bit knackered with the old Rheumatoid Arthritis right now, but I can 'phone and enquire. Where are you, by the way? I'm an expat Geordie in Cheshire!
BTW, I've got a cutaway drawing of a Defiant if that would help in a small way. It shows the turret, but possibly not in as much detail as you need. I'm virtually sure the Halifax MkIII upper turret was the same, or at least very similar, so a call to Elvington might help. Their web-site is pretty good too; Yorkshire Air Museum will find them.
Cheers,
Terry.

illustratedman · 12-08-2008, 03:35 PM

No worries Terry - 'Turret fighters' by Alec brew is on my list, waiting for a cheap copy to turn up on ebay as all the second hand ones seem to be about 25 quid on amazon etc. Not sure how much illustration/diagrams it contains though, the same author did another book called 'the defiant file' which is also out of print and even harder to find, but I get the impression its more accounts of the crews and unit histories rather than specs. Had a look at the Elvington website, they have a turret room with a type A mkVIII turret. However from the small photo on their website it does look slightly different to the defiant - will have to wait and see.
I think I already have the cutaway drawing that you are refering to - which is very good, answered a lot of my questions about the airframe.

BTW I'm in County Durham - Howay the lads!

rochie · 12-08-2008, 03:40 PM

hi alex i took some pics in the turret room at elvington i'll post em up in this thread when i get chance, they are not that great but it might help a bit

and no i'm not a boro fan

come on you spurs

Airframes · 12-08-2008, 03:51 PM

Try your library for the book first mate. If the local branch hasn't got it, but the County has, they'll get it in for you; could save a wait and expense, if it turns out to be of no use to you. Bear in mind the turret on the actual Halifax at Elvington, that might provide some answers. Hopefully rochie's pics might help, and the RAF Museum might come up trumps. I'll be going to my library next week, so I'll see if 'Turret Fighters' is still there, and let you know about its contents. If its any good at all, I'll get it out and scan any relevant bits etc.
Ee its canny yez from Cowntie Duram hinny, soes aye man! (very near to Gateshead) !!
Bet that's confused a few people!
Terry.

illustratedman · 12-08-2008, 04:00 PM

Cheers guys thanks for the help, much appreciated. My libary's online catalogue is down right now - although wouldn't hold out much hope - last book I ordered from them was for my dissertation and it arrived 2 years after I graduated

Toons and Smoggies, all we need now is a macam

Airframes · 12-08-2008, 04:10 PM

Got one just up the road from me! Don't think there's one on this site though; or at least, if there is, he won't admit it!

rochie · 12-08-2008, 05:26 PM

my grandad was a macam !

Micdrow · 12-08-2008, 08:35 PM

Try these from the book Defiant by mushroom books yellow book series.

Airframes · 12-08-2008, 10:24 PM

Paul, you are a star! Brilliant stuff, should answer most of Alex's questions I would think.

rochie · 12-09-2008, 04:16 AM

alex this was all i could find, the rest were nothing to do with defiant's
not sure its any help but i've posted it anyway

Graeme · 12-09-2008, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illustratedman

how the ammo is fed into the guns or how the links/cases are extracted - anyone know of any reference that shows this?

Hi Alex. These may be of some help in the Browning .303 department...

Also have various "detailed" drawings of the Boulton Paul turret Type A showing...
The Electrical Dristributor,
Hydraulic Generator and Controls,
Gun Elevation Ram,
Hydraulic Motor and Reduction Gear
Disengaging Gear,
Gun Fire Interrupter,
Interlock Plunger Stop Mechanism,
Ammunition system (Type E)
and how to bleed air from the elevating circuit.

Again, might be of some use?

Micdrow · 12-09-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airframes

Paul, you are a star! Brilliant stuff, should answer most of Alex's questions I would think.

Thanks Terry

12-08-2008, 11:54 AM	#1
illustratedman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 19	Boulton Paul type A (defiant) turret info request Hi folks just found this forum, have already posted this question in several other forums but it seems that Boulton Paul turret info is rarer than hens teeth so had little luck so far. Have already found a ton of stuff on this forum that I couldn't find elsewhere so I'm hoping I'm in the right place. Apologies if you are also a member of those other forums and are now sick of me banging on about the Boulton Paul Defiant I'm trying to make a 3d model of a Boulton Paul defiant, I have enough reasonable 4 views etc I think to model the aircraft but the turret is proving difficult to find reference pix of. I think I've got just about every image that you can from googling but really need blueprints, plans, cutaways or other more technical type drawings. The turret is a Boulton Paul type A. I have made a start by modelling the browning 303 but am already a bit stuck on reference for the firiing mechanism, some sort of solenoid or pneumatic trigger that might be fixed to the side plate or bottom - anyone have a better idea of what they look like when attached to the browning? Also can't really tell how the ammo is fed into the guns or how the links/cases are extracted - anyone know of any reference that shows this? I have one of the ecellent air ministry training films on dvd (the unseen films set) and have managed to grab a few frames from it but the areas I'm intersted in are tantalisingly indisctinct. I have the number for the correct air ministry publication that details boulton paul type A turrets (Air Publication Number AP1659C) but haven't been able to see a copy of it yet. When/if this model ever gets finished I had intended to do a series of renders focussing on the turret so I really need to make that part of the model as detailed as possible. Any help would be gratefully received. cheers alex

12-08-2008, 03:40 PM	#6
rochie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: billingham nr middlesbrough uk Posts: 3,115	hi alex i took some pics in the turret room at elvington i'll post em up in this thread when i get chance, they are not that great but it might help a bit and no i'm not a boro fan come on you spurs __________________ "We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel — the last little corporal to try it came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! ...and even then we won't listen!" quote from B.O.B movie

12-08-2008, 05:26 PM	#10
rochie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: billingham nr middlesbrough uk Posts: 3,115	my grandad was a macam ! __________________ "We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel — the last little corporal to try it came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! ...and even then we won't listen!" quote from B.O.B movie

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12-08-2008, 12:35 PM	#2
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	Hi Alex. from what you've described, it sounds like you already have the pics etc that I have somewhere. However, there is a publication covering British Gun turrets that could help, and also the book 'The Turret Fighters'. Sorry, can't remeber the author or publisher, but, coincidentally, I saw this was still in my local library only a week ago! I think there are some details of the turret in this book. Another source might be the R.A.F. Museum, Hendon, who have on display the only Defiant extant. Their research department might be able to help. There is also a collection of turrets, and assocated info, at the Yorkshire Air Museum, Elvington, near York. Although prossibly not exactly the same, the turret on the MkIII Halifax was a Boulton & Paul 4 gun turret, and the feed/ ejector mechanism etc will be very similar. I believe there is such a turret at Elvington, plus the Halifax of course, so a call/visit might provide what you are looking for. Hope this helps a bit. Terry.

12-08-2008, 01:38 PM	#3
illustratedman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 19	Cheers Terry. I think I have the book you were thinkng of - RAF gun turrets from 1914 to the present day by R Wallace Clarke. Bought it on ebay hoping it would solve all my problems but dissapointing when it comes to Boulton Paul turrets, particularly (of course) the type A - a good book otherwise, especially if you are looking at Frazer Nash turrets. Also got 'Guns of the RAF 1939-1945 GF Wallace, which is a good read but poorly illustrated. I have emailled Hendon research bods so will see what they have to say. Didn't know about the turret at Elvington, cheers unlikely to get down there in the near future though due to workload. cheers alex

12-08-2008, 02:49 PM	#4
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	No problem Alex. That book 'The Turret Fighters' might have the answers; if you think it might help, I can find the author/publisher details. Afraid I can't get to the library at the momemnt, I'm a bit knackered with the old Rheumatoid Arthritis right now, but I can 'phone and enquire. Where are you, by the way? I'm an expat Geordie in Cheshire! BTW, I've got a cutaway drawing of a Defiant if that would help in a small way. It shows the turret, but possibly not in as much detail as you need. I'm virtually sure the Halifax MkIII upper turret was the same, or at least very similar, so a call to Elvington might help. Their web-site is pretty good too; Yorkshire Air Museum will find them. Cheers, Terry.

12-08-2008, 03:35 PM	#5
illustratedman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 19	No worries Terry - 'Turret fighters' by Alec brew is on my list, waiting for a cheap copy to turn up on ebay as all the second hand ones seem to be about 25 quid on amazon etc. Not sure how much illustration/diagrams it contains though, the same author did another book called 'the defiant file' which is also out of print and even harder to find, but I get the impression its more accounts of the crews and unit histories rather than specs. Had a look at the Elvington website, they have a turret room with a type A mkVIII turret. However from the small photo on their website it does look slightly different to the defiant - will have to wait and see. I think I already have the cutaway drawing that you are refering to - which is very good, answered a lot of my questions about the airframe. BTW I'm in County Durham - Howay the lads!

12-08-2008, 03:51 PM	#7
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	Try your library for the book first mate. If the local branch hasn't got it, but the County has, they'll get it in for you; could save a wait and expense, if it turns out to be of no use to you. Bear in mind the turret on the actual Halifax at Elvington, that might provide some answers. Hopefully rochie's pics might help, and the RAF Museum might come up trumps. I'll be going to my library next week, so I'll see if 'Turret Fighters' is still there, and let you know about its contents. If its any good at all, I'll get it out and scan any relevant bits etc. Ee its canny yez from Cowntie Duram hinny, soes aye man! (very near to Gateshead) !! Bet that's confused a few people! Terry.

12-08-2008, 04:00 PM	#8
illustratedman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 19	Cheers guys thanks for the help, much appreciated. My libary's online catalogue is down right now - although wouldn't hold out much hope - last book I ordered from them was for my dissertation and it arrived 2 years after I graduated Toons and Smoggies, all we need now is a macam

12-08-2008, 04:10 PM	#9
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	Got one just up the road from me! Don't think there's one on this site though; or at least, if there is, he won't admit it!

12-08-2008, 10:24 PM	#12
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	Paul, you are a star! Brilliant stuff, should answer most of Alex's questions I would think.