The Italian Guns.

[CharlesBronson]

Scotti M1932 cal 7,7 mm.

The other rifle caliber machinegun used by the Regia Aeronautica was the Scotti gun. The designation is after its designer Alfredo Scotti, however the machinegun was actually manufactured by Isotta-Fraschini, an industrial consortium wich also made luxury cars and aero engines.



Mechanism in the Scotti was operated by gas, with a rotating bolt head for breech operation. The gun fires at open bolt and with higher rate of fire than the Breda SAFAT of the same calibre.



The open bolt system did not qualify for synchronizated mounting so the Scotti was almost exclusively used in flexible defensive emplacements.

2 views of waist 7,7 mm defensive Scotti MG emplacements in Bomber CANT Z 1007.

[CharlesBronson]

Thanks for the "sticky"

Scotti ( Isotta Fraschini) M1932 cal 7,7 mm characteristics:

Action: gas operated, air cooled.

Rate of fire: 850-880 rpm

Caliber: 7,7 x 56R

Lenght: 1120 mm

Weight: 11.5 kg.

Muzzle velocity: 740 mps.

Detail of the ammo supply and used belt/link collector.

[Micdrow]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

Thanks for the "sticky"

Your welcome!!!

[CharlesBronson]

You are a man that can recognize quality.


7,7mm x 56R cartrigdes for Breda, Scotti and FIAT light MG.

Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (al fosforo)

API steel core bullet with phosphor, 12 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 750 mps. Armor penetration 7 mm at 150 meters.




Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (alla termite)

API ammunition with explosive filling . 11,8 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 755 mps.




7,7 Breda da osservazione

Observation round, actually an explosive with nose fuse, this is more or less a italian version of the B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.




7,7 Breda tracciante luminosa.

A full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for day use. Muzzle velocity 760mps.

[paolomiana]

Hi CharlesBronson, guess this pic could be interesting too...

Paolo

PS dear Comiso90 may I join the "Va fangoule! club" ?

[CharlesBronson]

I wonder what a Italian do in that cold enviroment, grazie Paolo and thank you Mic for resizing the 12,7 mm ammo squematic.

[Micdrow]

Your welcome Charles, dont know if you have seen this one but you may find it useful if you havent.

I found it here.
Grenades, Mines and Boobytraps

[CharlesBronson]

Good stuff, particulary in italian bombs, Ill try to cut and paste some of that material later, when the information about guns is run out

Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 12,7 mm.

One of the few achievements of the Regia Aeronautica in the interwar period was the hindsight for the need of a heavy caliber machinegun to deal with the increase size and durability of the new generation of combat aircrafts.

While many Air Forces still struggled in 1939 and 1940 with a collection of rifle caliber machineguns like the RAF and the Luftwaffe ( and the fact that the british pilots had to defend its homeland with 7,7 mm peashooters is still a bonenchilling one, at list for me) the Italians already were enjoying the services of a reliable half inch caliber machinegun.

Inside the nose turret, Fiat BR 20


The Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm was a belt fed, short recoil operated weapon, essentially a italian modified Browning M1921 mechanism, but shorter and slightly less heavy than the US machinegun.

It was mounted experimentally first in the biplane CR 30 and was introduced in large scale in the CR 32 fighter. There was available in fixed wing, fixed synchronizated and defensive turret emplacements. The rate a fire wasnt high as a MG 131 and its muzzle velocity didnt match the one of the US M2 50caliber, but the SAFAT was a well constructed, sturdy and sound design that rarely jammed in action.

Above fuselage synchronizated, Fiat CR 32.


Unfortunately for the italian fighter pilots their aeronautical designers had the depressing tendendy to emplace only a pair above the engine wich reduced the rate of fire. Probably with 4 or 6 Bredas in the wings, shooting outside the propeller arc the Macchis, Reggianes and Fiats would made a better oponents in WW2.

Synchronizated, Fiat CR 42 Falco.



Synchronizated, Reggiane Re 2001, note the San Marco Reflex gunsight.



3 Safat 12,7 mm fixed in the nose, Breda Ba 88 attack bomber.

[paolomiana]

Dear CharlesBronson,

It's nice to see that everyone focus on the cold...... actually the problem is the darkness......8:45 AM and just started the sunshine .

The italian 12.7 machine gun wasn't that bed. expecially after that Spanish Civil War combat lesson force the development of the "tipo perforante".
Guys like Gabrielli and Castoldi are aware of the lack of firepower of their "serie 0" fighters but, due to the high empty weight of the airframes and lack of power of the engines weren't able to put more than two machineguns.
Take in mind that the "serie 0" airplanes were initially designed as wooden aircraft.......

The problem was probably generated by the italian chronic lack of good bauxite, that means no good dural, that means no light airframes.
Once I was able to read a paper of Gabrielli (around 1940-41) where he still state the superiority of wooden aircraft on metal ones. The political version to admit: we have no good allumunium alloys.

best regards

Paolo

[CharlesBronson]

Not to mention the finnish language that is a bit...how to say...tricky ?

Guys like Gabrielli and Castoldi are aware of the lack of firepower of their "serie 0" fighters but, due to the high empty weight of the airframes and lack of power of the engines weren't able to put more than two machineguns.

Take in mind that the "serie 0" airplanes were initially designed as wooden aircraft.......

The problem was probably generated by the italian chronic lack of good bauxite, that means no good dural, that means no light airframes.
Once I was able to read a paper of Gabrielli (around 1940-41) where he still state the superiority of wooden aircraft on metal ones. The political version to admit: we have no good allumunium alloys.

Interesting, that could explain the excessive use of chrome moly steel tubing seen in some aircraft and also the failure of the Breda 88.
Aniway I think a couple more of 12,7mm in the wing s of Mc 202 and Re-2001 didnt hurt the performance so bad.


Breda SAFAT 12,7 mm in AAA emplacement , Aviano 1944.

[paolomiana]

Tervetuloa (welcome) Charles Bronson...... tricky could be an optimistic point of view: no connection whit almost any latin word, but this is a part of the quest to live aboard. (btw apparently all finnish speak an excellent English, by far better than mine)

For the fighters the heavy strut generate another problem: I'm not sure about the numbers but are grossly right, to produce a MC202 it takes 80% more of manhour in respect of a Me.109 (leaving apart a P.51 produced in around 1/3 of a Macchi and by low trianed personnel)

clearly another industrial structure....

The poor alluminium alloy could also explain the odd CRDA (Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico) to produce the fusoleages..... three plywood skins glued togheter on a jig (? I'm not sure about this word..... a sort reference structure...) and removed once dry! a very artigianal process.

Paolo

ooops almost forgot, where are this wonderful pictures from?

[bruno_]

Just a small correction about italian reflector gunsight name depicted in the Re 2001 scheme: It is San Giorgio and not San Marco. To be precise it is a San Giorgio Tipo B.

[CharlesBronson]

Tervetuloa (welcome) Charles Bronson...... tricky could be an optimistic point of view: no connection whit almost any latin word, but this is a part of the quest to live aboard. (btw apparently all finnish speak an excellent English, by far better than mine)

Definately , I seen some finnish sites looking for info about antitank rifles and the language is crazy, impossible I might say. I can understand very well the english, italian and portuguese and to be able to make some short conversations in german but I think the suomen is beyond my skills.

The pictures are extracted form several "Ali d Italia" and "Ali d Italia mini" series, plus the Reggiane history and legacy collection ( really fat books those)

Just a small correction about italian reflector gunsight name depicted in the Re 2001 scheme: It is San Giorgio and not San Marco. To be precise it is a San Giorgio Tipo B.

Grazie Bruno, I mixed up the saints, every comment or amendment is welcome.


Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7mm scans from the Spanish Air force handbook ( they used it in in the He-111 and Ha-1112).

[CharlesBronson]

By the way the He-111 was used in the Spanish Air Force up to 1960s, not only as bomber but also as COIN aircraft in a late stage.

The trusty Heinkel bomber end up with a rare combination of british engines, german airframe, and italian machineguns, the Bredas 12,7mm were used for strafing the morrocan guerrilla at low altitude.

Scan of the Spanish Air Force (ejercito Del aire) continues, internal components on the 12,7 mm MG.

[GADGET]

Hey... any chance to copy this old Spanish manual to PDF and post it here?

Por favor.