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| Weapons Systems Tech. Technology behind the weapons and systems within aircraft. |
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10-17-2008, 10:29 AM
| #1 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
 | The Italian Guns. Probably the less know of all the aircraft armament of WW2. This is a topic that I had in my mind for a while, now after collecting some good info I think I am in the conditions to provide a good topic. And you know all my my topics are excellent so...  |
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10-17-2008, 12:06 PM
| #2 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 524
| For many years now I've had a personal moratorium on ethnically based jokes. So I mean no disrespect to those of Italian ancestry, but ......I did find this one kinda funny. It's a goldieoldie. Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once. 
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10-17-2008, 12:21 PM
| #3 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 434
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10-17-2008, 01:00 PM
| #4 | |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL
Posts: 3,529
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10-17-2008, 01:52 PM
| #5 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Jersey..The Garden State!
Posts: 9,214
 | Since my parents are mostly Italian heritage I know what that means Cosmiso!! haha  |
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10-17-2008, 01:57 PM
| #6 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 3,820
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10-17-2008, 03:03 PM
| #7 |
| “Archive”   Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,228
| Very cool Charles, cant wait to read more.
__________________  "Valor does not mean Hero." |
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10-17-2008, 06:31 PM
| #8 | ||
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
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The FIAT M1928. The Fabrica Italiana Automobile Torino ( italian Torino car factory) is one of the Europes biggest car industries and it was in the ww1 one of Italy main suppliers of ground based and aviation machineguns, mostly the design of Revelli. After the great war the FIAT created in 1926 a subsidiary devoted exclusively to the machineguns, that was the Societa Anonima Fabrica Armi Torino, or anonymous society Torino guns factory, mostly know as its abreviated S.A.F.A.T designation.  The first aircraft machinegun produced by the S.A.F.A.T was the M1928, this is a scaled up variant of the infantry light M1926, with a belt fed and increased rate of fire. However its main change was the adoption of the 8 mm Fiat cartrigde instead the usual M1891 6,5 mm ammunition. Worth to mention that the "8mm FIAT" designation was in fact a fancy name for the 7,7x56R, no other than the british .303 cartrigde, both types were completely interchangeable. The M1928 was installed in some biplane fighters of the late 1920s and early 1930s, but proven unrealible ( sometimes the case was fractured and parts remains left in the chamber !) and very difficult to synchronizate so it was replaced by the better Breda designs. Fiat S.A.F.A.T M1928. Caliber: 8 mm Fiat. Type of action: mechanically delayed blowback. Charging: manually by wire. Rate of fire: no less than 720 rpm. Lenght: 1250 mm Weight: 16.5 kg unloded Muzzle velocity: 745 mps. Last edited by CharlesBronson; 10-20-2008 at 06:03 PM. | ||
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10-17-2008, 06:51 PM
| #9 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
| FIAT light machinegun mechanism: This drawing of the internal components inside the infantry M1926 help to understand the delayed blowback mechanism in the M1928 MG, wich was basically the same. |
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10-17-2008, 08:31 PM
| #10 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,493
| Charles very interseting.....where were these guns used? And wuldnt having yet another ammunition type only add to the quartermasters misery???
__________________ Do not judge on abilities, but on choices |
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10-17-2008, 09:36 PM
| #11 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
| The M1928 was put in a few Fiat CR 20 biplane fighters. I dont think they had a lot of troubles with the ammo supply of 6,5 and 7,7mm, the italians already have the .303 in use because they purchased several Vickers aircraft guns in WW1. Is a logical step to discard the 6,5mm ammunition in aircraft weapon, because is really weak, think that in order to bring down an aircraft with a .303 machinegun you need a lot of bullets...now just try to calculate how many hits you need with a 6,5 mm mg. Aniway by 1931 the 6,5mm was used just by the army, the Air force used only 7,7mm and 12,7 mm cartrigdes, so the ammunition problem was pretty much over. 6,5 x 52 - MUNICION.ORG |
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10-19-2008, 09:22 AM
| #12 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
| Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm MG.  The italian air force was by late 1920 clearly aware of the limitations of its late Fiat designed Mgs, in order to solve that problem it launched a specification for a new aircraft machinegun in 1929. Both Fiat and the Brescia based Breda factory responded the requeriments. but breda 7,7mm machinegun with Browning type of action proven more reliable and lighter. Disapointed with its failure to provide to the goverment the FIAT sold it weapons manufacture subsidiary to Breda. For that point and onwards the Breda aircrat machineguns were designated as Breda S.A.F.A.T guns. The Breda SAFAT 7,7 mm was a disintegrable link, belt fed, air cooled and recoil operated machinegun. After the trigger is depressed bolt and barrel recoiled togheter for 11 mm, then the bolt is disingaged by a cam milled in the receiver, opening the chamber, extracting, introducing a fresh cartrigde and repeating all the cycle again. The gun fired at closed bolt and with a lighter firing pin that the Brownings types, so it was very suitable for synchronizated mountings. Pneumatic charging was provided for wings mounting and some fuselage emplacements. It was also very popular as defensive machinegun in bombers and recce airplanes ip to 1942 Wing mounting in attack aircraft Breda Ba 65.  Wing mounting, Reggiane RE 2001. Last edited by CharlesBronson; 02-21-2009 at 07:27 PM. |
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10-19-2008, 09:37 AM
| #13 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
| Two views of the Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm side defensive emplacements in Fiat RS 14 recce seaplane. Note the neat layout wich included a roof mounted magazine and alluminium container for spent belt links.   Last edited by CharlesBronson; 10-19-2008 at 09:43 AM. |
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10-19-2008, 10:12 AM
| #14 |
| “Archive” Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,228
| Very cool Charles, Ive never seen those pictures before.
__________________ "Valor does not mean Hero." |
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10-19-2008, 08:09 PM
| #15 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 3,150
| That is the idea, to post unseen pictures Thank you.Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm in defensive turret, Breda Ba 88.  Characteristics Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 7,7 mm Caliber : 7,7 mm Breda ( 7,7 x 56R) Type of action: short recoil, mascheroni muzzle booster. Rate of fire: 800-820 rpm ( 650-680 rpm in synchronizated emplacements) Lenght: 1190 mm weight 12,5 kg. |
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