Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

[CharlesBronson]

MG-131, part 2, use in fighter aircrafts:

The Bf-109 and Fw-190 emplacementes of this gun were both designed to shoot trought the airscrew, because that a synchronization device was needed.


MG 131 for synchronizated mountings.




In this form the gun was pneumatically trigered, when shooting trough the 3 blade propellers the rate of fire decreased comparatively little, about 800-810 rpm. That gave a sort of consolation price for the jagdfliegers due the concentrated cone of fire provided.

The earliest fighters in use was a couple of Bf-109F "Spezial" owned for Adolph Galland. Following Galland request (always unhappy with the reduced armament in the Ferdinand) those Messerschmitt had an factory convertion of two nose MG 131s with 200 rounds instead the normal 7,92 mm weapons. One of this F-2 was destroyed after a difficult combat with Spitfires.

External view in Gallands s F-2/U emplacement.



Funily enough this improvisated layout was far more streamlined of those used later in 1943 for the G-5/G-6/G-14, those large rounded fairings made sometimes the the german pilots nicknamed that Messers with the word "Beulens" (Boilers). I have seen some sources (specially websites) that claim the BF-109G-1 tropen as the first Gustav to use the 13 mm guns...nothing far from the truth, it was the presurizated G-5. An experimental variant equipped with electrical primer was developed but did not enter in service.


Loading the 131 in a FW-190A-7.



The heavy fighter Me-210 used a couple of MG 131 in a very complicated remote controled barbettes, the guns elevated and depressed his cannon togheter but could be aimed to the sides individually.

Remore turret in an Hungarian Me-210.




The Me-210 failed miserably in his intended use... the replacement for the Me-110, nevertheless it serve to develop the powerful Me-410 . It was this kind of armament wich shoot down James M. Morris a P-38 lighthing Ace of the 8th Air Force in 1944.
Morris was in pursuit of a Me-410 but fell to the "Hornisse" defensive MG 131s.

[CharlesBronson]

MG 131 part 3, bomber powered turrets:

Remote controled twin turret in He-177.

FDL-131







Single barrel mounting.




Electric powered turret EDL 131 in FW-200. Note the armor piercing (black) and HE ( yellow) rounds in belt.

[lesofprimus]

Some excellent pics Bronson...

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

MG-131, part 2, use in fighter aircrafts:

The Bf-109 and Fw-190 emplacementes of this gun were both designed to shoot trought the airscrew, because that a synchronization device was needed.

In this form the gun was pneumatically trigered...

An experimental variant equipped with electrical primer was developed but did not enter in service.

This is not correct. A percussion-primed version of the MG 131 was developed but never used by the Luftwaffe - all of their MG 131 were electric primed. This was done to facilitate synchronisation: the guns were not pneumatically triggered, they were fired by an electrical signal received from the synchronisation system.

The percussion-primed version of the MG 131 was adopted by the Japanese Navy, as the "13mm Type 2", and was (AFAIK) used only in flexible mountings.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[CharlesBronson]

Some excellent pics Bronson...

Thanks Les.

This is not correct. A percussion-primed version of the MG 131 was developed but never used by the Luftwaffe - all of their MG 131 were electric primed. This was done to facilitate synchronisation: the guns were not pneumatically triggered, they were fired by an electrical signal received from the synchronisation system.

¿¿Huh...???? Tony are you sure about this ?, I saw several pics of german soldiers using former Luftwaffe MG 131s in the ground role, that is with a wooden or metal stock. If all the Mg 131 were electricallly primed as you said....how the gun was powered ?

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

¿¿Huh...???? Tony are you sure about this ?, I saw several pics of german soldiers using former Luftwaffe MG 131s in the ground role, that is with a wooden or metal stock. If all the Mg 131 were electricallly primed as you said....how the gun was powered ?

That I don't know, but I'm certain that the Luftwaffe guns were electric primed: every source I know says so, and every cartridge I've ever seen is electric (the electric primer is easily recognisable because it has an insulating ring within it). There are a few of the experimental percussion ones in other collections, but they are very rare.

To convert an electric-pimed gun to percussion would not be a simple task, even if the ammo were available.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[CharlesBronson]

After looking for more info....you are correct.



The velocity marked here is wrong however.

But seems that also a percussion variant were used.


More images of this machinegun:




Do-217E turret:




Me-109K4 installation.

[CharlesBronson]

In the minute 3:10 of this video you can actually see a german tanker getting out of his vehicle with a MG 131 in hand.

YouTube - WWâ…¡ Jagd Tiger vs M10

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

In the minute 3:10 of this video you can actually see a german tanker getting out of his vehicle with a MG 131 in hand.
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Are you certain that's an MG 131? At that distance, it's hard to be sure.

If so, the simplest solution would have been to fit a battery. In fact, if they wanted to make a proper job of it, they could have supplemented a rechargable battery with a generator coupled to the bolt movement, like these torches you can buy which you charge up just by shaking to and fro. However, I have never heard of such modifications to the MG 131, and Musgrave's 'German Machine Guns', which describes the various modifications to the gun in detail, states that all models were electrically-primed and makes no mention of ground use.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[CharlesBronson]

Are you certain that's an MG 131?

It is.

I saw also a pic of a MG 131 with the stock and no cables in a russian forum, let see if I can found it again. Aniway those were not the usual in Luftwaffe as you said.

In fact, if they wanted to make a proper job of it, they could have supplemented a rechargable battery with a generator coupled to the bolt movement, like these torches you can buy which you charge up just by shaking to and fro

It would more easy to get a spring loaded firing pin with percussion primers

[Tony Williams]

According to Musgrave, a decision was taken to make all MG 131s electric primed, even though it was less convenient for those in flexible mountings, because that simplified gun and ammunition procurement and made certain that no gun could accidentally be supplied with the wrong type of ammunition. That is consistent with the fact that the only - and very rare - percussion-primed rounds known come from the development process for the gun, before it was adopted.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[CharlesBronson]

According to Musgrave, a decision was taken to make all MG 131s electric primed, even though it was less convenient for those in flexible mountings, because that simplified gun and ammunition procurement and made certain that no gun could accidentally be supplied with the wrong type of ammunition.

Yeap, Now I am convinced, every source seems to agree on that. We could say that every airborne gun was electrically ignited.

There was however some rare examples of percussion operated ground combat guns like this:

[Tony Williams]

Well, that's certainly an MG 131. But considering that those guns would AFAIK only be pressed into service as a makeshift expedient - I have never heard that the MG 131 was ever adopted by the army - I find it hard to believe that anyone would go to the trouble of converting them to percussion firing and setting up a production line for percussion ammunition and setting up the supply chain necessary to get such ammo to the guns which needed it. It makes no sense. I will make further enquiries....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[CharlesBronson]

Lets talk a little about the ammo.

Munition of 13x64B for MG 131.

As I said before this was a reduced capacity case in comparative with other similar weapons.Very reliable however. It can manage bullets weight between 33 and 38 grams and shoot them at more than 700 m/s. All the bullets use a metal driving band weich is unusual in this relatively small calibre, the "B" in the designation indicates a Belt to adjust chamber headspace.

13 mm Panzergranatpatrone L'Spur



Solid steel armor piercing shot, with day tracer. Muzzle speed 710 m/s. Bullet weight 38,1 grams. The tracer endures about 1,5 secs enough for 700 meters flight. There was also a Phosphor filled variant wich improve the incendiary effect.

Armor penetration table for the 13 mm Panzergranate, the vertical columns indicates the plate thickness and the horizontal the angle (90 º being vertical ) The discontinued lines indicate the penetration with a 3 mm duraluminium plate at 20º on front, simulating an aircraft body.




Sprenggranate L'Spur



Explosive, tracer with head impact fuse. Even is dubious the real affectiveness of a HE bullet in this caliber it was widely used. Some variant even had a self destruction element despite it complicated fabrication. Bullet weight 34 grams, muzzle speed 750 m/s.


Brandgranatpatrone L'spur



Incendiary with tracer. Weight 33,5 grams, muzzle speed 755 meters per second. The filling is a mix of barium nitrate and magnesium.

[CharlesBronson]

Ikaria MG FF 20 mm



The first cannon in use with the newly created Luftwaffe. This design derivated from the WW1 Becker gun, this was copied and manufactures for the swiss SEMAG (Oerlikon) factory in the interwar years as the FF-F ( FF means flugel felst = wing mounting) .



The Berlin based firm Ikaria adquire the license for his manufacturing in ealy 1930s. Not very satisfied with the performance of the swiss gun some modifications were introduced to increase the muzzle velocity and the rate of fire.

The gun mechanism was very simple, a cylindrical spring move the bolt forward feed the round and having a fixed firing pin it shoots the cartridge just being rammed in the chamber. The only opposed force to the powder blast is only the mass inertia of the moving parts until the recoil forces overcome it and the extraction began. This is know as blow-back operation system or (more technically) “advanced primer ignition”.


The simple blow-back mechanism in MG-FF.




The gun saw service experimentally in the Bf-109C and D, but only was broadly introduced in the BF-109E-3, also was part of the weaponry in the FW-190 (outer wings) until replaced with the more modern MG-151.

The ME-110 fighter carry 2 of these below the nose and some variants also had two in the rear cockpit as “Schrage musik” anti bomber guns.
Also was used in several bombers as an defensive armament.

Fixed MG FF in Ju-88A-14.



The MG FF weights 27 kg, had a rate of fire of 520 rpm, an overall length of 1260 mm and was feed by a 60 rounds drum magazine.