Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

[Denniss]

It looks like the MG FF/M is missing, that's the MG FF modified to fire the Minengeschoss (Mine-shell). These mine-shells were thin-walled high explosive shells containing four times the amount of explosives than the earlier MG FF HE rounds. Due to changes to the recoil mechanism the FF/M was not able to fire the heavier FF rounds and vice versa.
The FF/M was introduced with the Bf 109 E-4 and the Bf 110 C-4 just prior to Battle of Britain.

There was also a 90-round drum available but I'm not sure about introduction dates.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by Denniss

Due to changes to the recoil mechanism the FF/M was not able to fire the heavier FF rounds and vice versa.

This is correct but it might be worth adding some more information.

The MG-FF fired 134g projectiles at 600 m/s. The M-Geschoss weighed only 92g and although the muzzle velocity was increased to around 700 m/s this did not generate enough recoil to operate the MG-FF's mechanism, so it was modified to work with the lower recoil (thereby creating the MG-FFM, or MG-FF(M), or MG-FF"M" - various designations were used).

However, the Luftwaffe still wanted to use conventional HE-T projectiles because the original M-Geschoss design precluded the fitting of a tracer. So they lightened the HE-T shell by fitting a aluminium instead of brass fuze (117g total) and loaded it down to 585 m/s so it would match the recoil of the M-Gescoss. Later on, they introduced various types of pointed AP shell, also weighing around 117g.

There was also a 90-round drum available but I'm not sure about introduction dates.

Mid-war, I think - the drum was physically the same size as the 60-rounder, but packed more tightly. They also introduced a small 30-round drum for use in flexibly-mounted guns. And there was an electrically-powered belt feed for night fighters.

Incidentally, I believe that the 60-round drum was normally only loaded with 55 rounds as it was more reliable that way.

[CharlesBronson]

He, thanks for the input lads.

It looks like the MG FF/M is missing

Actually it hasnt, I just simply had no time to log in earlier:

Let see:




MG-FF/M variant:

The MG-FF/M was the gun prepared to shoot the special Minengesschos , this was a very thin walled explosive round wich higher capacity of explosive filling than the older models. However this 92 grams bullet had not enough recoil to feed the gun properly so a lighter cylindrical spring was needed. In order to armonisate all this the FF/M was introduced in 1940 with the Bf-109E-4 togheter with a new family of ammunition, wich ( to the headache of the ground crews) was not interchangeable with the FF ammo. The gun had a slightly improved rate of fire, about 540 rpm.

Gun armonization in Bf-109E-7 in the desert (a couple of FF/M cannons)




In outer wing Fw-190A-3.

There was also a 90-round drum available but I'm not sure about introduction dates.

I saw that in the JU-88A-14 nose. The drum was cilindrical and not conical like the 60 rounds one.

And be patient, i will put the ammo for this later.

[CharlesBronson]

Fw-200 using his belly mounted MG-FF for ship strafing, note that is loaded with 20 round magazines and not drums.

Minute 2:50

YouTube - Deutsche Wochenschau - Luftwaffe Focke-Wulf FW-200 Kondor

[comiso90]

Thanks much Charles...
Fascinating...
6000 rpm! Wow..
How many rounds were typically carried?
Were German gunners able to change barrels in flight?
Did the rear firing Mg-17 record many kills? It looks like a folly to me.

[CharlesBronson]

6000 rpm! Wow..

What weapon are you refering with that ?

How many rounds were typically carried?

In wich one ? If you are talking about the MG-FF in Fw-200 there was 15x20 rounds magazines= 300 rounds.

Were German gunners able to change barrels in flight?

No, generally the barrels of this guns were changed by the groundcrew.

Did the rear firing Mg-17 record many kills? It looks like a folly to me.

It did not.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

What weapon are you refering with that ?

In wich one ? If you are talking about the MG-FF in Fw-200 there was 15x20 rounds magazines= 300 rounds.
.

>>The Ju-87D and the attack variants of the FW-190 could mount a WB-81Z below the wing to engage enemy infantry , this contain 3 MG-81z tilted down 32 degrees so the aircraft shoot downwards even in level flight, this layout unleash a rate of more than 6000 rpm... ¡¡¡ quite a Minigun.

[CharlesBronson]

You are correct, in this case the rate excedeed that figure, because 6 x1500 = 9000 rpm...nasty.

The MG 81s were feed by 150 round per gun in that emplacement.

[genkideskan]

Regarding the WB 81 Z manual, there are 500 rds. per gun.

[genkideskan]

Here are some closer looks.

[lesofprimus]

Nice info...

[CharlesBronson]

Regarding the WB 81 Z manual, there are 500 rds. per gun

All right thanks for the correction, the WB was a nasty mean looking device.


Some examples of the ammo for MG-FF/M.

The mine explosive ammo, 92 grams shell, v0=675 m/s.





Armor piercing, 117 grams v==585 m/s.





Armor piercing Incendiary, phosphorous filling. 115 grams.





Armor piercing Incendiary, Elektron-thermit filling 117 grams, 575 m/s.





And the penetration table for the Panzergranate ammo:

[Joe2]

A single aircraft could wipe out a LOT of people if they where caught out in the open.

[CharlesBronson]

That was the idea.

The Mauser MG-151 family Part 1:

As early as 1934 the Mauser technicians began the development of a new airborne weapon to replace and/or complemente the Oerlikons guns.

The MG 151 was desing in two different calibres at the same time, the heavy 15mm MG-151/15 and the Mg-151/20 20 mm cannon. Interchangeability between both design was also provided.


MG 151/15.




The 15 mm heavy machinegun (incorrectly named cannon in some sources) was the first of the family to be introduced in service with the Me-109F2 in march 1941. The MG was operated by a short stroke recoil mechanism, both barrel and lock recoiled togheter and the the bolt is disingaged using a rotating bolts head.

Inner squematic.




The MG 151 used a large capacity bottlenecked case with gave a high velocity to the proyectiles around 850-960 m/s. That provided a streigth flying path to target and improve the chances of hit. Due the generous muzzle speed the Ap bullet could defeat any aeronautical armor in that time, including the mitic "ironclad" ilyushin Il-2 Sturmovik. The overall lenght of the gun was 1917 mm, width 190mm, weight 42,5 kg and it shoot at some 700 rpm.


Loading a 125 rounds belt in a Hs-129B-1.




triple mounting of Mg-151 /15 in He-280.






Between 1944 and 1945 a lot of surplus MG-151/15 were used as a drilling (triple) in the Sd.Kfz 251 half-track.

[Eighthaf]

Two questions:

First; did FW-190s use underwing cannons in the Jagdbomber role?

Second; If the answer to the the first is 'yes', was there more than one sort?

I have a reference which shows two underwing gondola arrangements for -190s. One of them is probably for F-model birds, but I'm not sure about the other, which shows two pods, each with two 20mm cannon.

Thanks,

Eighth