ADS NOT DISPLAYED TO REGISTERED USERS.
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

10 July 1910. Introduction of triangular army divisions.

World War I Discuss 10 July 1910. Introduction of triangular army divisions. in the Other Eras forums; From mid 1909 to mid 1910 the German military mission to the Ottoman Empire conducted a series of operational exercises ...

  1. #1
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    5,380
    Country
    United States

    10 July 1910. Introduction of triangular army divisions.

    From mid 1909 to mid 1910 the German military mission to the Ottoman Empire conducted a series of operational exercises to determine optimum structure for army divisions and army corps. During July 1910 they settled on a triangular organization with three infantry regiments per division and three divisions per army corps. An organizational structure so efficient that most nations use it right up to the present day.

    Reorganization of the Ottoman Army began during January 1911. This turned out to be a bad idea as Balkan wars of 1911 to 1913 caught the Ottoman Army in a state of turmoil. However it paid off during 1915 when the reorganized Ottoman Army defeated the Anglo-French invasion of Gallipoli and again during 1919 - 1922 when the Ottoman Army defeated the Anglo-French attempt to carve up Asia Minor.



    Oddly enough the German Army did not adopt their own reorganization recommendations until early 1915. During August 1914 the Heer marched to war with the older square division and army corps structure. If the Heer had adopted their reorganization recommendations during 1911 they would have had one third more infantry divisions at the start of WWI.
    Last edited by davebender; 11-16-2011 at 03:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Readie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plymouth, England
    Posts
    2,894
    Country
    England
    Is that a good thing dave?

  3. #3
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    5,380
    Country
    United States

    Is that a good thing dave?

    Modern day American and British army divisions still employ a triangular structure. So I'd say the German army reorganization plan of 1910 has stood the test of time.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Readie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plymouth, England
    Posts
    2,894
    Country
    England
    Quote Originally Posted by davebender View Post
    Modern day American and British army divisions still employ a triangular structure. So I'd say the German army reorganization plan of 1910 has stood the test of time.
    The German's could not have been that good dave.
    Triangular structure or not.
    History shows us that
    John

  5. #5
    Der Crew Chief DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    USA/Germany
    Posts
    39,398
    Country
    United States
    Country II
    Germany
    John, I don't think that was the point of his thread. I think you are looking to much into it and quite possibly just fishing...


    fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

  6. #6
    Senior Member Readie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plymouth, England
    Posts
    2,894
    Country
    England
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet View Post
    John, I don't think that was the point of his thread. I think you are looking to much into it and quite possibly just fishing...
    Not fishing (I can't be arsed with that), just an observation Chris.
    If the German Army knew that the triangular system was superior then why not use it?
    For such a military nation I'm surprised...
    John

  7. #7
    Senior Member parsifal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Orange NSW
    Posts
    6,534
    Country
    Australia
    Triangular formations for modern armies have been in place since the time of Napoleon. They work on the basic principal of fire and movement. In theory you have a three to one advantage over your opponent when on the attack, whatever the size of the engagement. Moreover a triangular formation is an inherently flexible organization. It allows one element to make the assault, one element to provide fire support, and one element to be held ready for exploitation. It works in the defence or when retrreating.

    If we wind back the clock a little to musket and ball era, the concept of triangular formations can be traced back to the three ranks of the Infantry formation. Whether falling back, or advancing, the front rank is firing, the middle rank is sighting up, and the rear rank is reloading....this is where the concept comes from.

    Without a doubt, a triangular organization is a far more efficient formation, on one proviso. It assumes some degree of manouvre is available. During the advance on the marne in 1914, this was certainly the case, and the efficient triangular divisional organizations in the french army at that time is probably what saved it in that first offensive. However during WWI generally, the triangular TOE theories did not work complatrely as planned, because for most of the conflict there was very little manouvre, and a lot of close in hand to hand fighting. There was also a lot of casualties suffered so ready access to larger battalions, with large reserves of men, and a large fpf (final protective fire) advantage was found more important than inherent flexibility and mobility. This is why the US Army and many allied armies retained a quasi square formation at both divisional and corps level. Firepower and reserve were more important for most of the war than mobility. Whilst the turkish army had indeed resolved to reorganize its army in 1910, this was far from complete AFAIK, and in fact the turks fought Gallipoli and most of their campaigns in Palestine, anatolia and Iraq with a fairly immobile square formation TOE. In th relatively mobile operations of Palestine, this definately worked against the turks....time and again they found they could not react nearly quickly enough to manouvre operations initiated by the allies. Dont know what happened on the Anatolian front, in Gallipoli if the Turks did use a triangular structure it certainly is not mentioned in any of the accounts that i know of (but square formations are mentioned), and it makes sense that for a front like Gallipoli a TOE that favours firepower would be of greater advantage over a TOE tailored for manouvre. The germans might have been trying to give the turks bad advice, but the turks knew better (thats a bit tongue in cheek guys....Sanders was a definite asset to the turks in that campaign....)

    A link for some reading up on the theory and history perhaps

    Sixty Years of Reorganizing for ... - Google Books
    Fr President Clemenceau’s speech to the AIF 7th July 1918: “ we expected a great deal of (Australians)… We knew that you would fight a real fight, but we did not know that from the beginning you would astonish the whole continent. I shall go back and say to my countrymen “I have seen the Australians, I have looked in their faces …I know that they will fight alongside of us again until the cause for which we are all fighting is safe for us and for our children”.




  8. #8
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    5,380
    Country
    United States

    If the German Army knew that the triangular system was superior then why not use it?

    That's what I would like to know. I suspect the answer lies buried in pre-WWI German General Staff discussions.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Readie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plymouth, England
    Posts
    2,894
    Country
    England
    Quote Originally Posted by davebender View Post
    That's what I would like to know. I suspect the answer lies buried in pre-WWI German General Staff discussions.
    It will be interesting to find out dave.
    John

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86