Best Ace of WW1

Hunter368 · 09-15-2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

I'm not sure if you can make a distinction between a successful warrior and a killer. The evolutionary process that takes place leads some to become better at it than others, that is true. But people are naturally averse to killing. It is something of a learned adaptation. And getting to the point at which you are really good takes time. It is a process. As you become more of a professional, it stands to reason you become a more refined killer. You are essentially refining those skills. To quote Bedford Forrest, "War means Fighting, and Fighting means Killing". Von Richtoffen refined those skills (doubtless his hunting from an early age gave him an important edge) to a point that was above his contemporaries. He did it faster and obviously better.

I draw a line between killing and murder in this arguement. It is probably beyond the scope of this thread. As a proffessional, I do not consider what he did (given the blessing of time and distance that we have) as murder. It was killing. But that was his business.

100% agree with you Tim. The big thing I didn't like about Bombers post was he called him "a cold blooded killer" at the same time saying "Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes". I see both as insults to the well earned legend and reputation of the Baron. He did his job like all the fighter pilots in WW1, they shot down planes, he just did it better then the rest of them.

Also I don't believe the handful of Military members here on our forum would like to be referred to as "cold blooded killers" simply b/c they were doing what their country trained them to do......that is protecting us civilians from the enemy. I would refrain from calling someone in the military a cold blooded killer ever, not saying that you have. He did nothing wrong or illegal during his time flying, he was just very good and did things that other pilots had even started to conceive.

He was truly years ahead of his time.

Hunter368 · 09-15-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Some more food for thought...

Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.

100% agree Joe.

Hunter368 · 09-15-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

but also notice too Richthofens tactics, aka style permeated his Jasta and later the Jagdgeschwader where "Fatty" later took over, agreesive hard hitting not giving an inch.

yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer

Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.

Erich you and all our servicemen here are warriors, never to be confussed with killers. You all did what you had to do to protect your country and us.

I personally thank you for your service.

Erich · 09-15-2006, 11:28 AM

another chap to consider for Germany is a very late war Pour le Merit winner, Ltn. d. Reserve Ulrich Neckel of Jasta 6 the Staffelführer in the fall of 1918, he flew a very interesting camo concepted Fokker DVII. Diagonal black stripes over white that's intended useage was to throw off Allied gunners. Ulrich had Jasta 6 DvII's painted not quite all the way down the fuselage but for the most part visible the front of the fuselages all the same way: black on the white

He had 30 victories

timshatz · 09-15-2006, 11:36 AM

More food for thought about Von Richtoffen's sheer drive and discipline...

He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage.

But he went back and fought successfully even with this handicap. The day he was shot down, he showed all the symptoms of combat fatigue as well (losing track of his position, difficulty in destroying a relatively easy target, breaking his own rules on fighting by flying too low to the ground, ect). There is little doubt he was exhausted when he was killed (rumor is he was a day or two away from going on leave and possibly be ordered to stop flying) but given his nature, there was really no other option for him.

A very determined, strong person.

Hunter368 · 09-15-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

More food for thought about Von Richtoffen's sheer drive and discipline...

He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage.

But he went back and fought successfully even with this handicap. The day he was shot down, he showed all the symptoms of combat fatigue as well (losing track of his position, difficulty in destroying a relatively easy target, breaking his own rules on fighting by flying too low to the ground, ect). There is little doubt he was exhausted when he was killed (rumor is he was a day or two away from going on leave and possibly be ordered to stop flying) but given his nature, there was really no other option for him.

A very determined, strong person.

Interesting post

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 09-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.

And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.

I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.

Hunter368 · 09-15-2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.

I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.

Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.

They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 09-15-2006, 04:56 PM

I happen to agree with that.

timshatz · 09-18-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.

They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.

Dead on. I and a lot of civilians (regardless of what we did once apon a time) are now living happy, relatively carefree lives due to people who keep our nights (and days) safe. We make money, have families and generally live comfortable and in some cases nievely safe lives because of other people who dedicate their time (and possible lives) to keeping our the wolf away from the door. I do not believe for a second that the Utopian belief system consitutes reality. More it is a liberal offshoot of a life so safe that the realities of a daily life of strife (which most of the world is familiar with) to not apply.

It's good to have friends. But our enemies should fear us. People in the military are the reason they do.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 09-18-2006, 03:22 PM

Could not have said it better.

Hunter368 · 09-18-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Could not have said it better.

Cool camo there Chris.

timshatz · 09-19-2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Could not have said it better.

Yeah, pretty cool. Is that Hartman's bird with Winter Camo?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 09-20-2006, 05:57 AM

Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.

timshatz · 09-20-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.

Read his book and vaguely remember it saying he didn't fly the aircraft with the tulip nose for long. Thought the Russians were avoiding him. But it has to have been 20 years or more since I read that particular book.

Still looks cool.