Best Ace of WW1

[bomber]

As I'm from Nottingham is has to be Albert Ball... because he led others followed...

Albert Ball, VC.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

While I agree that there were plenty of pilots that were just as good flying, tactically and what not as Von Richthofen, the Red Baron simply is the greatest of all time.

He shot down the most aircraft to be the first Ace of Aces. He was tactically a great pilot. He flew planes that traded speed for maneuverability and lives on in imortality.

By imortality I mean he is respected by his enemies and he lives on in every culture. You look at any history book, his name is is mentioned. You look at the movies, look at the music, look at books. He is found everywhere. Eveyone knows the story of the Reb Baron.

After the turn of the century
In the clear blue skies over Germany
Came a roar and a thunder men had never heard
Like the scream and the sound of a big war bird

Up in the sky, a man in a plane
Baron von Richthofen was his name
Eighty men tried, and eighty men died
Now they're buried together on the countryside

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

In the nick of time, a hero arose
A funny-looking dog with a big black nose
He flew into the sky to seek revenge
But the Baron shot him down - "Curses, foiled again!"

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

Now, Snoopy had sworn that he'd get that man
So he asked the Great Pumpkin for a new battle plan
He challenged the German to a real dogfight
While the Baron was laughing, he got him in his sight

That Bloody Red Baron was in a fix
He'd tried everything, but he'd run out of tricks
Snoopy fired once, and he fired twice
And that Bloody Red Baron went spinning out of sight

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

[FLYBOYJ]

Very Cool!!!

[bomber]

The quality of the oponents B von R shot down was often questioned by fellow German pilots..

That is to say in a time of chivalry... he played outside the rules, or rather wrote new ones.

regards

Simon

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And they had better competition?

Sorry but know one can really say that. Richthofen was just better than them. There were pilots out there just as good, but no one will ever supersede the Red Baron or his legacy.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by bomber

The quality of the oponents B von R shot down was often questioned by fellow German pilots..

That is to say in a time of chivalry... he played outside the rules, or rather wrote new ones.

regards

Simon

Here is a list of his kills, how can anyone question the quality of his kills? He got his first in 1916, not 1914 when planes and pilots were new to air combat. Alot of his kills were fighters, quality fighter planes also. As per the qualtiy of the pilots all you can assume were that they are average Allied pilots, its not like as he can pick out the green pilots in a dogfight and go only after them. What the hell!!!


No. Date Type of Aircraft Location
1 Sept. 17, 1916 FE 2b near Cambrai
2 Sept. 23, 1916 Martinsyde G 100 Somme River
3 Sept. 30, 1916 FE 2b Fremicourt
4 Oct. 7, 1916 BE 12 Equancourt
5 Oct. 10, 1916 BE 12 Ypres
6 Oct. 16, 1916 BE 12 near Ypres
7 Nov. 3, 1916 FE 2b Loupart Wood
8 Nov. 9, 1916 Be 2c Beugny
9 Nov. 20, 1916 BE 12 Geudecourt
10 Nov. 20, 1916 FE 2b Geudecourt
11 Nov. 23, 1916 DH 2 Bapaume
12 Dec. 11, 1916 DH 2 Mercatel
13 Dec. 20, 1916 DH 2 Moncy-le-Preux
14 Dec. 20, 1916 FE 2b Moreuil
15 Dec. 27, 1916 FE 2b Ficheux
16 Jan. 4, 1917 Sopwith Pup Metz-en-Coutre
17 Jan. 23, 1917 FE 8 Lens
18 Jan. 24, 1917 FE 2b Vitry
19 Feb. 1, 1917 BE 2e Thelus
20 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Loos
21 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Mazingarbe
22 Mar. 4, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Acheville
23 Mar. 4, 1917 BE 2d Loos
24 Mar. 3, 1917 BE 2c Souchez
25 Mar. 9, 1917 DH 2 Bailleul
26 Mar. 11, 1917 BE 2d Vimy
27 Mar. 17, 1917 FE 2b Oppy
28 Mar. 17, 1917 BE 2c Vimy
29 Mar. 21, 1917 BE 2c La Neuville
30 Mar. 24, 1917 Spad VII Givenchy
31 Mar. 25, 1917 Nieuport 17 Tilloy
32 April 2, 1917 BE 2d Farbus
33 April 2, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Givenchy
34 April 3, 1917 FE 2d Lens
35 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Lembras
36 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Quincy
37 April 7, 1917 Nieuport 17 Mercatel
38 April 8, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Farbus
39 April 8, 1917 BE 2e Vimy
40 April 11, 1917 BE 2c Willerval
41 April 13, 1917 RE 8 Vitry
42 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Monchy
43 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Henin
44 April 14, 1917 Nieuport 17 Bois Bernard
45 April 16, 1917 BE 2c Bailleul
46 April 22, 1917 FE 2b Lagnicourt
47 April 23, 1917 BE 2e Mericourt
48 April 28, 1917 BE 2e Pelves
49 April 29, 1917 Spad VII Lecluse
50 April 29, 1917 FE 2b Inchy
51 April 29, 1917 BE 2d Roeux
52 April 29, 1917 Nieuport 17 Billy-Montigny
53 June 18, 1917 RE 8 Strugwe
54 June 23, 1917 Spad VII Ypres
55 June 26, 1917 RE 8 Keilbergmelen
56 June 25, 1917 RE 8 Le Bizet
57 July 2, 1917 RE 8 Deulemont
58 Aug. 16, 1917 Nieuport 17 Houthulster Wald
59 Aug. 26, 1917 Spad VII Poelcapelle
60 Sept. 2, 1917 RE 8 Zonebeke
61 Sept. 3, 1917 Sopwith Pup Bousbecque
62 Nov. 23, 1917 DH 5 Bourlon Wood
63 Nov. 30, 1917 SE 5a Moevres
64 Mar. 12, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Nauroy
65 Mar. 13, 1918 Sopwith Camel Gonnelieu
66 Mar. 18, 1918 Sopwith Camel Andigny
67 Mar. 24, 1918 SE 5a Combles
68 Mar. 25, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
69 Mar. 26, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
70 Mar. 26, 1918 RE 8 Albert
71 Mar. 27, 1918 Sopwith Camel Aveluy
72 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Foucacourt
73 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Chuignolles
74 Mar. 28, 1918 Armstrong Whitworth FK 8 Mericourt
75 April 2, 1918 FE 8 Moreuil
76 April 6, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux
77 April 7, 1918 SE 5a Hangard
78 April 7, 1918 Spad VII Villers-Bretonneux
79 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Bois-de-Hamel
80 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneu

Further more a definitive study was conducted by British historian Norman Franks with two colleagues, resulting in publication of Under the Guns of the Red Baron in 1998. Their research confirmed the veracity of at least 73 of von Richtofen's claims, with identities of the Allied airmen whom von Richthofen had fought. There were also unconfirmed victories that could put his actual total as high as 84. So I say again ......what the hell!!!

[timshatz]

I have that book from Franks. A very good book. Has pictures of each of the guys he shot down (some of poor quality due to the age of the pics). Describes each downing. Very impressive book.

As an Ace, I agree with the general consensus that the Von Richtoffen was the best. Not as a dogfighter (probably give that to Voss, Bishop or Ball), but dogfighting is a dangerous way to get a kill. It's a real mess in the middle of a furball and a differnent type of killing than what the Red Baron used. He was a hunter, a stalker. The furball was dangerous and he recognized it as such. His method was the stalk and quick strike, he stayed above the dogfight whenever possible.

He also had the benefit of being in the right place at the right time. The Abatross Fighter was just coming into service when he came on the scene as a single seat pilot. That gave him technical superiority to his opponents. Huge in the Air War, no matter what war you talk about. Also, Oswald Boelke (sp?) had already established the Boelke Dicta (which is still valid today) as the rules on how to fight. And Boelke was an excellent leader.

Von Richtoffen had an excellent machine, excellent teacher and excellent tactics. Given all that, he rose above those around him who had the same situation. Wolf, Almenroeder, even his brother, were all competent killers in the air. But his skill at the stalk and kill, his ability to keep track of everything going on around him, superior shooting skills and iron will/discipline lead him to be the greatest of that generation.

As an Ace, he was it. Others were better shots (not many, but some) such as Fonck, some were better leaders, Boelke or Mannock. But he was the complete package as an Ace.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As an avid big game hunter he basically applied the same rules of hunting big game to hunting aircraft and killing them. He was the best.

[bomber]

Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man it's just that we, and this thread has romantised this era of aviation combat..

We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano.

Now this did happen but let's be sure we're attributing the right characteristics to the correct pilots... because B Von R was a colded blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes... A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric.

He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more proffesional aproach to aviation combat which gave results.

We all value the judgement of our piers and although there no doubt was an element of jealousy.. his piers did not think of him that favourably in life,,, in death maybe.

I'm not out to cause a fight, it's just that at a time when boys went up in planes who's life expectancy was measured in minutes.... unlike the romatised view we have of 'giving the other guy a fair chance'... that was not his style.

And as an interesting footnote, historians and strategists have attributed the subsequent 'hero worship' of B von R by luftwaffe pilots, as the root cause of their failure to win the BoB in WWII...

Regards

Simon

"I treat my plane like my woman. I get in her 3 times a day and take her to heavan and back.... wahhhha !"
Captain Flashheart

[timshatz]

Along the lines of Bomber's post, Von Richtoffen was not a nice guy. Most pilots who knew and flew with him said he was aloof/distant, a disciplinarian and not interested in teaching his pilots. Very introverted person, especially when compared with his brother Lothar. With him, You either shot down enemy aircraft or you were gone. He tossed 2 or 3 pilots the day he was shot down. He led by example, not by instruction and didn't seem to care if his pilots liked him or not.

From all I've read, he was a dyed in wool killer who shot to kill and was not above shooting downed flyers on the ground. He played to win, was not in it for Chivalry or anything of that nature. Remorseless, focused, lethal, calculating, all these words come to mind when Von Richtoffen is considered. It is not a condemnation of the man but simply the realization of the process of elimination to develop the best traits for air fighting. Doubtless, most other pilots who succeeded and survived had these personality characteristics as well.

The romantic notions were most probably created by the press and the propagandist. Those who flew over the lines (and survived for any length of time) in WW1 doubtfully had any illusions about what they were doing and how to win.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by bomber

Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man it's just that we, and this thread has romantised this era of aviation combat..

We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano.

Now this did happen but let's be sure we're attributing the right characteristics to the correct pilots... because B Von R was a colded blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes... A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric.

He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more proffesional aproach to aviation combat which gave results.

We all value the judgement of our piers and although there no doubt was an element of jealousy.. his piers did not think of him that favourably in life,,, in death maybe.

I'm not out to cause a fight, it's just that at a time when boys went up in planes who's life expectancy was measured in minutes.... unlike the romatised view we have of 'giving the other guy a fair chance'... that was not his style.

And as an interesting footnote, historians and strategists have attributed the subsequent 'hero worship' of B von R by luftwaffe pilots, as the root cause of their failure to win the BoB in WWII...

Regards

Simon

"I treat my plane like my woman. I get in her 3 times a day and take her to heavan and back.... wahhhha !"
Captain Flashheart

Bomber I have a few questions/comments for you:

1) You said the following "because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes".

Cold blooded killer???? He was at war doing his duty like every pilot on either side it was expected of him to shoot down enemy planes. How does that make him a "cold blooded killer"?

Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes???? I posted for you his list of kills, did you see it???? I see alot of fighters on that list don't you?
You comment of him shooting down scout planes like that is a bad thing. Scout planes are a highly valuable target on the battle field. Whats wrong with him shooting down prime targets?

2) You said following "We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano."

You might think that way but I know not all of us here think the same way as you do. Air combat is anything but chivalry, at times like other areas of combat you might see the odd glimpse of chivalry but that not the rule. Air combat is combat, kill or be killed simple as that.

3) You said "A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric."

Keep his tail clean....seems like a smart idea to me if you want to stay alive!! He was not a dualist or chivalric??? Good idea !!! Those traits will get you killed.

4) You said "He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more professional approach to aviation combat which gave results."

Thats good thats what made him so damn good. Better than the rest of them.

[bomber]

Sorry Hunter, you're clearly not objective in this...

I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romatasised view of the man is not the reality.

They are royalty in my mind

Just about. What I think is wiered about it though is the fact that WW1 aviation was still like the chivelrous days of the Nights on Horse Back. It really is a glorious time.

This is the common popular belief about the period, and for some pilots this was true...

But I find it disrespectfull to those that did fight and die this way to attribute these characteristic to someone who didn't....

Try looking at what I've said,,


Simon

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by bomber

Sorry Hunter, you're clearly not objective in this...

I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romatasised view of the man is not the reality.





This is the common popular belief about the period, and for some pilots this was true...

But I find it disrespectfull to those that did fight and die this way to attribute these characteristic to someone who didn't....

Try looking at what I've said,,


Simon

Simon,

"Try looking at what I've said?????" Not sure if you are trying to be disrespectful by that comment but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not, even if it sounds like it, b/c you are a newbie to this site.

Lets talk about what I have said now. At no point have I ever romanticized air combat in this thread. Not sure who you actually quoted there and I don't care, it was not me.

I'm not being objective here????? Please quote where I am not being objective in your mind. After you have been here for a while you will know that I only talk facts, "A wise man listens while a fool talks", is the saying. Please I invite you to quote me where I am not being objective.

Where or how is saying "what makes a good pilot" not being objective. I have reread my post to you and see nothing but facts and truths in my post. Please point anything out from my post that is not truthful, fact or objective.

[bomber]

because I never said it made him a bad pilot...

Read Timshatz's post.. go pick a fight with him if you can't understand my English.

Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..

All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.

Simon

[Erich]

back on topic guys .........

the Baron coming from an aristocractic famile had too many expectations laid upon his table that he could not keep, one reason to be a lone wolf and innovator in the skies, his autonomousness caused him many victories as well as his own death ........

I can think of many aces but one strikes me with his agressive go get em nature, 40 victory and Pour le Merit winner Hauptmann Karl Menckhoff, flying in Jasta 3 and finishing in Jasta 72 shot down behind enemy lines on the 23rd of August 1918 escaped a week later and walked to Switzerland where he set up his own business until his death in 1948.

machs gut !