Best Ace of WW1

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by Erich

back on topic guys .........

I can think of many aces but one strikes me with his agressive go get em nature, 40 victory and Pour le Merit winner Hauptmann Karl Menckhoff, flying in Jasta 3 and finishing in Jasta 72 shot down behind enemy lines on the 23rd of August 1918 escaped a week later and walked to Switzerland where he set up his own business until his death in 1948.

machs gut !

Now that is a guy you'd like to have a beer with. Does his bit for King and Country and after the math catches up with him, he moves on.

To paraphrase the line from "Mephis Belle", he did his bit for the Fatherland and after that, he did his bit for himself.

That's the kind of guy you can shoot down but not beat.

Died kinda young. Seems like he was somewhere around 50-55.

[timshatz]

Whoops, my bad. Menckhoff was 65 when he died. Was 34-35 when he was shot down and captured.

[FLYBOYJ]

[Erich]

so very true, would of liked to have conversed with him and here his stories of a time so long ago........

ok WW 1 a/c experten I posted this image some years ago, I luv the thing.
An Albatross D-Va with from left to right the following: Lt. D.R. Herman Vallendor with 5 kills, Lt. Kempf in the middle and on the left side; Lt. Gerhart Bassenge with 7 kills. photo is 1918 and no clue if the markings are black on white or ??, anyone have an ID to the unit ?

E ~

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by bomber

because I never said it made him a bad pilot...

Read Timshatz's post.. go pick a fight with him if you can't understand my English.

Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..

All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.

Simon

I never said you said he was a bad pilot, read my post closely. You said I was not being objective b/c I pointed what I call characteristics that make a good pilot. I never said you called him a bad pilot, if you think I did post that quote from me. Here is the post that you called "not objective".

Bomber I have a few questions/comments for you:

1) You said the following "because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes".

Cold blooded killer???? He was at war doing his duty like every pilot on either side it was expected of him to shoot down enemy planes. How does that make him a "cold blooded killer"?

Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes???? I posted for you his list of kills, did you see it???? I see alot of fighters on that list don't you?
You comment of him shooting down scout planes like that is a bad thing. Scout planes are a highly valuable target on the battle field. Whats wrong with him shooting down prime targets?

2) You said following "We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano."

You might think that way but I know not all of us here think the same way as you do. Air combat is anything but chivalry, at times like other areas of combat you might see the odd glimpse of chivalry but that not the rule. Air combat is combat, kill or be killed simple as that.

3) You said "A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric."

Keep his tail clean....seems like a smart idea to me if you want to stay alive!! He was not a dualist or chivalric??? Good idea !!! Those traits will get you killed.

4) You said "He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more professional approach to aviation combat which gave results."

Thats good thats what made him so damn good. Better than the rest of them.



Simon where I am being not objective in that post or rude to you. You claim you are not looking for a fight here but you are the only one getting excited here. All I am doing is asking you questions about your post. Believe me if you can't handle or don't like to be questioned on things you say you will not likely last long here. There is people here that know a heck alot more about WW1 or WW2 than either you or I will ever likely know. Get used to being questioned or called on your posts.


Then you said "Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man ", really??? Lets see what you have said now about him:

-because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes

-A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric

Now all your comments about him were not 100% negative but those are pretty damning words right there.

I am trying to pick a fight with you??? No But I am asking you to explain yourself and your posts. If I wanted Timshatz to explain himself I would of asked him, I'm not asking him I am asking you.

You seem to be the one getting excited and maybe trying to start a fight, here is what you have said to me:

-you're clearly not objective in this...

-Try looking at what I've said

-if you can't understand my English

-Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..

-All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.


MMM you seem to be the one using the negative or raising the tone of your posts here not me. Believe me if you want to argue about this I can, thus far I have been polite.

All I have been doing is asking you to explain yourself / your posts. So far you have avoided my clear questions about your post. Mmmmm why is that? You are the one dismissing my questions to you. Mmmmm why is that?

Side note I have read this whole thread, you posted quotes made from other people and posted those quotes when talking to me. This is what you said to me when posting those quotes:

"I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romanticized view of the man is not the reality."

This is what I said about that quote "At no point have I ever romanticized air combat in this thread."

What the heck does that quote have to do with me? I agreed with you that combat is not a romantic thing.

Simon even though you claim not to be picking a fight it seems like you purposely are heading in that direction. Answer my questions about your post in a factual way and everything will be fine. I don't see a problem here unless you make one, I am just asking you questions about your post. That is going to happen to you here alot get used to it.

[davparlr]

The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by davparlr

The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree with Hunter here. Everything you described bomber is what made him the better pilot.

I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.

I am being objective and the "new" style that the Baron flew made him the better pilot.

He got the job done, he shot the enemy down more than they got thim.

That is the job of the fighter pilot, to kill or be killed.

He did just that and did it better than anyone.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by davparlr

The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.

Agreed 100%.

Also agree on Snoopy shooting him down 100%!

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I have to agree with Hunter here. Everything you described bomber is what made him the better pilot.

I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.

I am being objective and the "new" style that the Baron flew made him the better pilot.

He got the job done, he shot the enemy down more than they got thim.

That is the job of the fighter pilot, to kill or be killed.

He did just that and did it better than anyone.

Thanks Chris (cool change to your sig by the way),

Thats all I have been saying to bomber or trying to get him to admit. Baron was no cold blooded killer like bomber said. He was a pilot before his time, fighting the way a fighter should fight. He was a professional warrior, fighting and doing what he could to defend his country. Thats all, nothing more or nothing less, just a warrior.

He should be given his do respect as one of the best to ever strap himself into a fighter plane.

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

That's the guy. Looks pretty good for his middle 30s. Guess .303 rounds whizzing past your head does wonders for weight control!

On a related note, I read last night that he may've been the guy in the Red Abatross that was trying to cover Werner Voss's tail during Voss's Last Dogfight (the one where he took on something like 7 pilots from the 56th Squadron and put holes in all of them). According to what I've read, both he and Voss were shot down that day by the same guy (Rhys-Davies).

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Thanks Chris (cool change to your sig by the way),

Thats all I have been saying to bomber or trying to get him to admit. Baron was no cold blooded killer like bomber said. He was a pilot before his time, fighting the way a fighter should fight. He was a professional warrior, fighting and doing what he could to defend his country. Thats all, nothing more or nothing less, just a warrior.

He should be given his do respect as one of the best to ever strap himself into a fighter plane.

I'm not sure if you can make a distinction between a successful warrior and a killer. The evolutionary process that takes place leads some to become better at it than others, that is true. But people are naturally averse to killing. It is something of a learned adaptation. And getting to the point at which you are really good takes time. It is a process. As you become more of a professional, it stands to reason you become a more refined killer. You are essentially refining those skills. To quote Bedford Forrest, "War means Fighting, and Fighting means Killing". Von Richtoffen refined those skills (doubtless his hunting from an early age gave him an important edge) to a point that was above his contemporaries. He did it faster and obviously better.

I draw a line between killing and murder in this arguement. It is probably beyond the scope of this thread. As a proffessional, I do not consider what he did (given the blessing of time and distance that we have) as murder. It was killing. But that was his business.

[FLYBOYJ]

Some more food for thought...

Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Some more food for thought...

Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.

Good post. While he may not've orginated the slashing attack, he definitely realized it's usefulness and exploited it. Hit and gone. Or as designer of fighter aircraft once told me, "Whack the guy and be back in the bar having a drink before he knows what hit him".

[Erich]

but also notice too Richthofens tactics, aka style permeated his Jasta and later the Jagdgeschwader where "Fatty" later took over, agreesive hard hitting not giving an inch.

yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer