Who do you think shot down the Red Baron?

[wilbur1]

Does it really matter? the guy was the best aircraft fighter of his time. he was shot down because he knew it was his time. he was the best at what he did, kill enemy aircraft. as far as im concerned he did his job

[HoHun]

Hi Graeme,

>I don't know if it was ever resolved or if the 'real' plate ever surfaced.

I'm surprised by the inscription "MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER" ... "militaar" is not German, but "Flugzeug" is - now it must have been just like that on the original plate or it wouldn't have been considered genuine in 1973, but I'm still surprised.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Graeme]

Originally Posted by HoHun

I'm surprised by the inscription "MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER" ... "militaar" is not German, but "Flugzeug" is - now it must have been just like that on the original plate or it wouldn't have been considered genuine in 1973, but I'm still surprised.

Hi HoHun.

Interesting!

One letter, by a British engineer, believed that the words were misspelled? According to him the correct spelling is "MILITAR (two dots above the A) AND FLUGZEUG" (no dots above the U's);

"..it seems that someone was a trifle over-enthusiastic with the umlaut.."


Another letter from a Fokker historian at the Nat Av Museum in Schipol, believes that the correct text appearance should read, "MILITAER (or MILITAR)_FLUGZEUG FOKKER DR I 425/17"

He goes on (and on);

"The use of the "Umlaut" (the two dots above an a, o or u) could only have been applied on the single A of MILITAR, although it would be preferably written MILITAAR with a double A. The application of the "Umulat" on both U's in FLUGZEUG is unthinkable, by a German as the words should read FLUGZEUG (Flugzeug). A military aircraft reads "Militar-Flugzeug" in German, with a hyphen."


(Had great difficulty typing this HoHun! Can scan and post if it makes no sense)

[HoHun]

Hi Graeme,

>"..it seems that someone was a trifle over-enthusiastic with the umlaut.."

Absolutely! I actually disregarded the dots because they are plain silly ... thought it must be some paint chipped off from the plate. Note that there is only one dot above each A, which is more nonsense.

>Another letter from a Fokker historian at the Nat Av Museum in Schipol, believes that the correct text appearance should read, "MILITAER (or MILITAR)_FLUGZEUG FOKKER DR I 425/17"

That's what I'd have thought, too. "MILITÄR" and "MILITAER" are equivalent, Umlauts are transcribed with an "e" following the original vowel when the type set does not contain Umlauts (for example on teletype).

The "ß" which only exists in lower type is a ligature resulting from two different "s" types merged into a single one, and transscribed as "ss" or (strictly on teletype) as "sz".

Hm, maybe a list might be better than a long explanation:

Lower case:

ä -> ae
ö -> oe
ü -> ue
ß -> ss (normally), sz (in teletype)

Upper case:

Ä -> AE (if the text is in capitals), Ae (in mixed text)
Ö -> OE (if the text is in capitals), Oe (in mixed text)
Ü -> UE (if the text is in capitals), Ue (in mixed text)
ß -> does not exist in upper case, is transscribed as "SS" if the text is all capitals

(No word ever starts with an "ß" ligature :-)

Since the Umlauts are phonetically quite different from the "plain" vowels, you can confuse German native speakers quite easily by simply eliminating the "dots" with no transliteration :-) For example, "löten" means "to solder", "loten" means "to sound/to fathom" - and you'd pronounce both differently.

>"The use of the "Umlaut" (the two dots above an a, o or u) could only have been applied on the single A of MILITAR, although it would be preferably written MILITAAR with a double A.

I'm not sure about the double A ... I never Umlauts transcribed like that before. Not to say it could not have been used like that in a special niche, or that typesetting customs might have been slightly different 90 years back, but I'm still a bit sceptical ...

In fact, when I saw "MILITAAR", I had spontaneously thought it might be Dutch ... however, now I believe it would have to be "MILITAIRE" in that case, and "VLIEGTUIG" instead of "FLUGZEUG".

(Note the very similar etymology - interesting since there was considerable debate in Germany on which term to choose for the "aeroplane". "Flieger" and "Flieg" where also considered. The latter etymological option seems to have been chosen by the Danes who decided for the equivalent "Fly".)

>The application of the "Umulat" on both U's in FLUGZEUG is unthinkable

Definitely! It's about as credible as "Mötörhead" :-)

>(Had great difficulty typing this HoHun! Can scan and post if it makes no sense)

You did a great job, I think I perfectly understood every detail of your post! :-) I hope my answers don't prove me wrong ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[pbfoot]

this is an interesting read on the last flight it was written by an ex CAf F18 pilot now historian and was published in the canadian defence Review
Who Killed Von Richthofen?

[freebird]

Can I vote for the beagle?

[wilbur1]

Hey! I think i have that book still

[Njaco]

unfortunately, me too.

Just to toss in a monkey wrench. Fokker was Dutch and quite possibly used Dutch instead of German. What I'm saying is that what some might assume to be German might actually should be Dutch. So instead of trying to decipher in German maybe its the other country that should be looked at.

That said, I have no clue the difference between Dutch and German. The points about umlat I'm aware of in German. Does the same hold true for Dutch?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here is the true story about how the Red Baron was shot down!

Believe it and Learn it!!!!!



YouTube - The Royal Guardsmen - Snoopy Vs. The Red Baron

[Njaco]

"10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more..the Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score...
80 men died trying to end the spree
of the Bloody Red baron of Germany!"

Love IT!!!!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have that on vinyl!

It is an all time favorite of mine.

[HoHun]

Hi Njaco,

>What I'm saying is that what some might assume to be German might actually should be Dutch. So instead of trying to decipher in German maybe its the other country that should be looked at.

I'm afraid I must have bored everyone to death with my transliteration instructions above, but after the boring bit and the excursion bit I got to a Dutch bit too

In my opinion (I don't speak any Dutch ...), the proper Dutch terms would be

- Dutch: "MILITAIRE VLIEGTUIG"
- German: "MILITÄRFLUGZEUG"

(German engineers often fail to observe typographic conventions ... "MILITÄR-FLUGZEUG" would be credible, too.)

I don't know what real historic German dataplates actually said ... "Militärflugzeug" seems a fairly generic term of little descriptive value.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi Njaco,

>10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more..the Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score...

Here is a version without the bleeding bleeps:

YouTube - Royal Guardsmen - Snoopy Vs. The Red Baron

While it lacks the great flying scenes, it shows the original artists

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I have that on vinyl!

It is an all time favorite of mine.

First record I ever bought was that as a 45 , the next was the beayles Long Tall Sally

[Njaco]

Wow! So did I!!! Still have the Baron 45 but the Beatles....gone.