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11th of December 1941.....

WW2 General Discuss 11th of December 1941..... in the World War II - General forums; I think that they would have done. Japan believed that they had been backed into a corner regarding resources, this ...

  1. #16
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    I think that they would have done. Japan believed that they had been backed into a corner regarding resources, this was a loss of face and the military who effectively ruled Japan would not back down. I know that the Japanese civilian diplomatic and political bodies were dead set against joining the pact in the first place and were urging peace.
    It should be remembered that in 1932 the military assassinated a conservative Prime Minister. In 1935 an extreme rightist Lt Col Saburo Nagata assassinated the Chief of the War Office Lt Gen Tetsuzan Nagata. This was followed in 1936 by an attempted coup d'état when members of the Army killed four senior statesman. Finally in 1939 three cabinets fell and a new cabinet in 1940 headed by Admiral Yonai was formed and he did all he could to avoid the Tripartite Act. When the army realized that he would not let Japan join the Tripartite they caused the cabinet to fail again by refusing to nominate an Army representative which the constitution insisted should be represented.



    Had the allies been aware of the internal situation and given the more moderate members of the government some rope by relaxing some of the financial restrictions then the civilians might have been able to stop the drive to war.

  2. #17
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    If the Japanese had left an attack on the USA for another year or so then I wonder how strong militarily the USA would have been by that time compared to Japan, would the difference between Japan and America have widened or narrowed.

  3. #18
    Pacific Historian syscom3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pattle View Post
    If the Japanese had left an attack on the USA for another year or so then I wonder how strong militarily the USA would have been by that time compared to Japan, would the difference between Japan and America have widened or narrowed.
    It would have been worse off for the Japanese. The US had a huge shipbuilding program underway since 1940 and think of the size of the US fleet in early 1943. That's what they would be up against. Same with the AAF. Squadrons and groups of all kinds were beginning were the result of the 1940 build ups.
    "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

  4. #19
    Senior Member parsifal's Avatar
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    Germany declared war on the US because of its treaty obkigations under th Tripartite Pact, and because hitler believed at the outbreak that Japan would make an absolute meal of the Us, and wanted to secure some (unspecified) benefits from the demise of the US.

    On 25 November 1941, Germany tried to further solidify the alliance against Soviet Russia by officially reviving the Anti-Comintern Pact of 1936, now joined by additional signatories, Hungary and Romania. However, with the Soviet troops around Moscow now being reinforced by East Siberian divisions, Germany's offensive substantially slowed with the onset of the Russian winter in November and December 1941. Against that backdrop, the Japanese steadfastly refused to renew their committment to the Anti-Comintern Pact obligations. There was no obligation for the japanese to attack the Russians under the Tripartite Pact. As 1940 dragged into 1941, the germans became increasingly insistent on Japan joining them in their anti-bolshevik crusade, but also began to see the writing on the wall with regard to US intervention in the western hemisphere.

    It was evident that the "neutrality" which the US had superficially maintained to that point would soon change to an open and unlimited support of Britain against Germany. Hitler thus welcomed Japan's sudden entry into the war with its air raid on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941 and its subsequent declaration of war on the United States and Britain, just as the German army suffered its first military defeat at the gates of Moscow. Upon learning of Japan's successful attack, Hitler became euphoric, stating: "With such a capable ally we cannot lose this war." It was against that backdrop of overconficence that the Nazi rush to declare war on the US can only be understood.

    Preceding Japan's attack were numerous communiqués between Berlin and Tokyo. The respective ambassadors Ott and Ōshima drafted an amendment to the Tripartite Pact, in which Germany, Japan and Italy should pledge each other's allegiance in the case one signatory is attacked by – or attacks – the United States. Although the protocol was finished in time, it would not be formally signed by Germany until four days after the raid on Pearl Harbor.That being said, it had been agreed to in principal before the Japanese attack. Japan went to war confident in the knowledge they would be supported by the germans (and Italians) Also among the communiqués was another definitive Japanese rejection of any war plans against Russia:

    Although the amendment to the Tripartite Pact was not yet in force, Hitler chose to declare war on the United States and ordered the Reichstag, along with Italy, to do so on 11 December 1941, three days after the United States' declaration of war on the Empire of Japan. His hopes that, despite the previous rejections, Japan would reciprocally attack the Soviet Union, were not realized, as Japan stuck to its Nanshin strategy of going south, not north, and would continue to maintain an uneasy peace with the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, Germany's declaration of war further solidified German–Japanese relations and showed Germany's solidarity with Japan, which was now encouraged to cooperate against the British. To some degree, Japan's actions in South-East Asia and the Pacific in the months after Pearl Harbor, including the sinking of the HMS Prince of Wales and the HMS Repulse, the occupation of the Crown Colonies of Singapore, Hong Kong, and British Burma, and the air raids on Australia, were a tremendous blow to the United Kingdom's war effort and preoccupied the Allies, shifting British (including Australian) and American assets away from the Battle of the Atlantic and the North African Campaign against Germany to Asia and the Pacific against Japan. In this context, sizeable forces of the British Empire were withdrawn from North Africa to the Pacific theatre with their replacements being only relatively inexperienced and thinly spread divisions.

    In the long run, Germany and Japan envisioned a partnered linkage running across the British-held Indian subcontinent that would allow for the transfer of weaponry, resources as well as other possibilities. After all, the choice of potential trading partners was very limited during the war and Germany was anxious for rubber and precious metals, while the Japanese sought industrial products, technical equipment, and chemical goods.
    Last edited by parsifal; 11-22-2013 at 12:42 AM.
    Fr President Clemenceau’s speech to the AIF 7th July 1918: “ we expected a great deal of (Australians)… We knew that you would fight a real fight, but we did not know that from the beginning you would astonish the whole continent. I shall go back and say to my countrymen “I have seen the Australians, I have looked in their faces …I know that they will fight alongside of us again until the cause for which we are all fighting is safe for us and for our children”.



  5. #20
    Senior Member parsifal's Avatar
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    Another source, albeit from an american perspective,

    Four Days in December: Germany's Path to War With the U.S.

    And this is source material of an even more dubious origin, but it is a faithful translation of Hitlers address to the Reichstag

    Hitler Declares War on the United States


    This in my opinion is the relevant part of hitlers address to the reichstag. Typical of Hitlers speeches, it is a rambling confused affair, full of half truths and outright lies, but it also reveals what he was thinking at the time of the declaration.


    "We have seen what the Jews have done in Soviet Russia. We have made the acquaintance of the Jewish Paradise on earth. Millions of German soldiers have been able to see this country where the international Jews have destroyed people and property. The President of the U.S.A. ought finally to understand-I say this only because of his limited intellect-that we know that the aim of this struggle is to destroy one State after another. But the present German Reich has nothing more in common with the old Germany. And we, for our part, will now do what this provocateur has been trying to do so much for years. Not only because we are the ally of Japan, but also because Germany and Italy have enough insight and strength to comprehend that, in these historic times, the existence or non-existence of the nations, is being decided perhaps for ever. We clearly see the intention of the rest of the world towards us. They reduced Democratic Germany to hunger. They would exterminate our social things of today. When Churchill and Roosevelt state that they want to build up a new social order, later on, it is like a hairdresser with a bald head recommending an unfortunate hair-restorer. These men, who live in the most socially backward states, have misery and distress enough in their own countries to occupy themselves with the distribution of foodstuffs.

    As a consequence of the further extension of President Roosevelt's policy, which is aimed at unrestricted world domination and dictatorship the U.S.A. together with England have not hesitated from using any means to dispute the rights of the German, Italian and Japanese nations to the basis of their natural existence. The Governments of the U.S.A. and of England have therefore resisted, not only now but also for all time, every just understanding meant to bring about a better New Order in the world. Since the beginning of the war the American President, Roosevelt, has been guilty of a series of the worst crimes against international law; illegal seizure of ships and other property of German and Italian nationals were coupled with the threat to, and looting of, those who were deprived of their liberty by being interned. Roosevelt's ever increasing attacks finally went so far that he ordered the American Navy to attack everywhere ships under the German and Italian flags, and to sink them-this in gross violation of international law. American ministers boasted of having destroyed German submarines in this criminal way. German and Italian merchantships were attacked by American cruisers, captured and their crews imprisoned. With no attempt at an official denial there has now been revealed in America President Roosevelt's plan by which, at the latest in 1943, Germany and Italy were to be attacked in Europe by military means. In this way the sincere efforts of Germany and Italy to prevent an extension of the war and to maintain relations with the U.S.A. in spite of the unbearable provocations which have been carried on for years by President Roosevelt, have been frustrated. Germany and Italy have been finally compelled, in view of this, and in loyalty to the Tri-Partite act, to carry on the struggle against the U.S.A. and England jointly and side by side with Japan for the defense and thus for the maintenance of the liberty and independence of their nations and empires.

    The Three Powers have therefore concluded the following Agreement, which was signed in Berlin today:

    "In their unshakable determination not to lay down arms until the joint war against the U.S.A. and England reaches a successful conclusion, the German, Italian, and Japanese Governments have agreed on the following points:

    Article I. Germany, Italy and Japan will wage the common war forced upon them by the U.S.A. and England with all the means of power at their disposal, to a victorious conclusion.

    Article II. Germany, Italy and Japan undertake not to conclude an armistice or peace with the U.S.A. or with England without complete mutual understanding.

    Article III. Germany, Italy and Japan will continue the closest cooperation even after the victorious conclusion of the war in order to bring about a just new order in the sense of the Tri-Partite Pact concluded by them on the 27th September 1940.

    Article IV. This Agreement comes into force immediately after signature and remains in force as long as the Tri-Partite Pact of 27th September 1940. The Signatory Powers will confer in time before this period ends about the future form of the co-operation provided for in Article III of this Agreement.""
    Last edited by parsifal; 11-22-2013 at 12:55 AM.
    Fr President Clemenceau’s speech to the AIF 7th July 1918: “ we expected a great deal of (Australians)… We knew that you would fight a real fight, but we did not know that from the beginning you would astonish the whole continent. I shall go back and say to my countrymen “I have seen the Australians, I have looked in their faces …I know that they will fight alongside of us again until the cause for which we are all fighting is safe for us and for our children”.



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