American Invasion Fleet could have been destroyed by the "Divine Wind"

[amrit]

Previous typhoons affecting USN:

18 December 1944
Pacific Typhoon, 18 December 1944

On 17 December 1944, the ships of Task Force 38, seven fleet and six light carriers, eight battleships, 15 cruisers, and about 50 destroyers were operating about 300 miles east of Luzon in the Philippine Sea. The carriers had just completed three days of heavy raids against Japanese airfields, suppressing enemy aircraft during the American amphibious operations against Mindoro in the Philippines. Although the sea had been becoming rougher all day, the nearby cyclonic disturbance gave relatively little warning of its approach. On 18 December, the small but violent typhoon overtook the Task Force while many of the ships were attempting to refuel. Many of the ships were caught near the center of the storm and buffeted by extreme seas and hurricane force winds. Three destroyers, USS Hull, USS Spence, and USS Monaghan, capsized and went down with practically all hands, while a cruiser, five aircraft carriers, and three destroyers suffered serious damage. Approximately 790 officers and men were lost or killed, with another 80 injured. Fires occurred in three carriers when planes broke loose in their hangars and some 146 planes on various ships were lost or damaged beyond economical repair by fires, impact damage, or by being swept overboard. This storm inflicted more damage on the Navy than any storm since the hurricane at Apia, Samoa in 1889. In the aftermath of this deadly storm, the Pacific Fleet established new weather stations in the Caroline Islands and, as they were secured, Manila, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. In addition, new weather central offices (for coordinating data) were established at Guam and Leyte.

June 1945
Typhoons and Hurricanes: Pacific Typhoon, June 1945

On 3 June 1945, the ships of Task Group (TG) 38.1, built around aircraft carriers USS Hornet (CV-12) and USS Bennington (CV-20), and the oilers in Task Group 30.8 were operating east of Okinawa, having just completed two weeks of air attacks against Japanese airfields on Okinawa and Kyushu. Although a tropical disturbance had been reported forming east of the Philippines, confused sighting reports and communications delays deprived Third Fleet of timely and accurate location information. Contradictory weather reports did not help the situation. On 5 June, the small and tight typhoon overtook TG 38.1, which passed through the eye of the storm at 0700 that morning. Hurricane force winds of 70 knots (80.5 miles per hour), with gusts up to 100 knots (115 miles per hour), damaged almost every ship in TG 38.1 and TG 30.8. In the former, heavy cruiser USS Pittsburgh (CA-72) lost her bow and two other cruisers suffered frame damage. All the fleet carriers suffered flight deck damage, while USS Belleau Wood (CV-24) also lost an elevator. The destroyers rode out the storm rather well, only USS Samuel N. Moore (DD-747) suffering major superstructure damage. In the refueling group, escort carriers USS Windham Bay (CVE-92) and USS Salamaua (CVE-96) lost part of their flight decks and tanker USS Millicoma (AO-73) suffered severe topside damage. One officer and five men were lost or killed, with another four seriously injured. Storm damage wrecked 43 planes and another 33 were washed overboard. After continued strong recommendations, the Pacific Fleet established uncoded plain language typhoon advisory dispatch procedures on 10 June and, two days later, began flying B-29 aircraft on storm reconnaissance missions.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well if the Typhoon was expected during the Invasion it certainly would have postponed the invasion until the storm had passed. It however would not have stopped an invasion from happening.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

Yeah and so would the guys who took Normandy,Sicily, Anzio and North Africa

The last invasion of in the ETO took place in Aug 1944. By May 1945, many of the troops had been "used" up by attrition, thus the units present at VE day, were hardly the same as during the invasion.

The troops in the Pacific on the other hand, didnt have such attrition and were involved in many invasions through out 1944/45.

The officers in the USN in the pacific didnt think very highly of their counterparts in the Atlantic when it came to large invasions. In the planning for Normandy, they told CinC Atlantic to add dozens more cruisers and battleships to add for fire support. They were told 'thanks for the info, but we know what we are doing". The debacle at Omaha Beach could have been averted if they were listened too.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Well if the Typhoon was expected during the Invasion it certainly would have postponed the invasion until the storm had passed. It however would not have stopped an invasion from happening.

You're right. The Allies probably would have been smart enough to not let their fleet be caught sailing in the midst of a Typhoon, even though it sounds like it hit Okinawa 5 days after it was spotted and many of the ships in harbor couldn't escape it by going out to sea in a differant direction.

The Mongols couldn't predict weather like the GI's could! And that's saying a lot, since I still am baffled by high tech weather predictions and the unpredicted final outcome!

[102first_hussars]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The last invasion of in the ETO took place in Aug 1944. By May 1945, many of the troops had been "used" up by attrition, thus the units present at VE day, were hardly the same as during the invasion.

The troops in the Pacific on the other hand, didnt have such attrition and were involved in many invasions through out 1944/45.

The officers in the USN in the pacific didnt think very highly of their counterparts in the Atlantic when it came to large invasions. In the planning for Normandy, they told CinC Atlantic to add dozens more cruisers and battleships to add for fire support. They were told 'thanks for the info, but we know what we are doing". The debacle at Omaha Beach could have been averted if they were listened too.

It wouldnt of matterd one goddam bit what the Marines thought of the Army, they would have had to SUCK IT UP, if they were to fight together, SOLDIERS AND OFFICERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN, and expected to work as a team

The USN had more battleships and cruisers at IWO JIMA and Okinawa, F*ck they even had Aircraft Carriers, and what a big difference that made...NOT!

(there was no CV that i recall playing any key role in the normandy landing)


So if youre saying that if the Allies had more BB and BC available at Normandy, the near disastor at Omaha wouldnt have happened, compared to the Iwo Jima and Okinawa Landings, Normandy was a stunning success.

The Japanese And Germans alike were extremely well dug in, it wouldnt have mattered one bit how much indirect fire support they had, the only weapon that would have made a HUGE difference, is if today's Guided Bunker Buster Bombs, and Thermol Night Vision existed back then

and the whole "thanks for the info, but we know what we are doing" sounds made up

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

It wouldnt of matterd one goddam bit what the Marines thought of the Army, they would have had to SUCK IT UP, if they were to fight together, SOLDIERS AND OFFICERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN, and expected to work as a team

Huh? Did you know the US Army in the PTO made more amphib landings than the marines?

The USN had more battleships and cruisers at IWO JIMA and Okinawa, F*ck they even had Aircraft Carriers, and what a big difference that made...NOT!

Huh? The landings at Okinawa were unopposed. Did you know that? And just think of the losses that might have been at Iwo had there been no heavy naval fire support.

So if youre saying that if the Allies had more BB and BC available at Normandy, the near disastor at Omaha wouldnt have happened, compared to the Iwo Jima and Okinawa Landings, Normandy was a stunning success.

Yes. The allies succeded at Nomrandy because the navy had enough fire power to keep the Germans off balance while the tanks and artillery was still being brought in.

The Japanese And Germans alike were extremely well dug in, it wouldnt have mattered one bit how much indirect fire support they had, the only weapon that would have made a HUGE difference, is if today's Guided Bunker Buster Bombs, and Thermol Night Vision existed back then

Tarawa was an example where naval gunfire was inadaquate. The navy learned its mistakes and it really didnt happen again.

and the whole "thanks for the info, but we know what we are doing" sounds made up

Obviously you havent read up on the naval planning for D-Day because it has been documented that the Atlantic fleet didnt listen to the Pacific fleet when it came to needing heavy gunfire support. Especially in mid 1944 when there were enough heavy warships available to go around.

[102first_hussars]

[quote=syscom3;245636]Huh? Did you know the US Army in the PTO made more amphib landings than the marines?

No, i didnt know that, i always thought it was the Marines in the Pacific, and the army in the Europe

[jonsidneyb]

The Japanese Navy was not an effective fighting force at this time but there were some secret weapons perhaps held back for this.

1. We would still have been able to bring more ships into the area but with the USSR declaring war on Japan today we might have a communist Japan from the Russian Invasion if were were unable to act fast enough with our ships under repairl, in reserve, or out of position.

[kool kitty89]

There's alot of evedence that the IJN atomic bomb project (separate from their ruined main-land project) based off the Northern Korean coast may have actually sucessfully tested a staged nuclear fission bomb.(enriched Uranium based) This occured a few days after the bombing of Hioshima, prior to Nagasaki.

But since we had the bomb already, and it prevented the need of invasion, I guess there isn't much point. (we had a third bomb almost rady too, and the Japanese were far from producung a deployable version, or a method of delivry.)



On the other hand, what if storms had prevented the full D-Day landing force from reaching Normandyand the invasion failed. Germany would have had more time to develop advanced secret weapons and deploy them. The outcome would likely be the same, but again at a much higher cost to the Allies. Maby drawn-out enough for Allied and Axis jets to see combat aganst eachother...

[syscom3]

There's alot of evedence that the IJN atomic bomb project (separate from their ruined main-land project) based off the Northern Korean coast may have actually sucessfully tested a staged nuclear fission bomb.(enriched Uranium based) This occured a few days after the bombing of Hioshima, prior to Nagasaki.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

There's alot of evedence that the IJN atomic bomb project (separate from their ruined main-land project) based off the Northern Korean coast may have actually sucessfully tested a staged nuclear fission bomb.(enriched Uranium based) This occured a few days after the bombing of Hioshima, prior to Nagasaki.

"alot of evedence [sic]"

Come on back to us kk.

TO

[kool kitty89]

They were certainly farther along than the German nuclear program in terms of bomb reasearch. (most German work being done in reactor reasearch for nuclear energy).

Take a look at this: Japan's Atomic Bomb : Japan Probe

I hadn't thaught much of the Japanese program either except for a single 1945 American news article I read online while reasearching the topic ~5 years ago. That's the article mentioned in the above video.

Here's the article: Japan's Atomic Bomb


The only problem with prooving that an actual test took place is that the Soviets invaded that region (Northern Korea) so allied forces never knew much about it and there isn't much left but a few doccuments and verbal accounts.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

They were certainly farther along than the German nuclear program in terms of bomb reasearch. (most German work being done in reactor reasearch for nuclear energy).

At that stage in the war, what was their plans for a delivery system?

Suicide sub in pearl harbor?

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

They were certainly farther along than the German nuclear program in terms of bomb reasearch. (most German work being done in reactor reasearch for nuclear energy).

Take a look at this: Japan's Atomic Bomb : Japan Probe

I hadn't thaught much of the Japanese program either except for a single 1945 American news article I read online while reasearching the topic ~5 years ago. That's the article mentioned in the above video.

Here's the article: Japan's Atomic Bomb


The only problem with prooving that an actual test took place is that the Soviets invaded that region (Northern Korea) so allied forces never knew much about it and there isn't much left but a few doccuments and verbal accounts.

The sources you cite are probably for entertainment purposes only, they are not proof of anything. Be careful, you can find info on the net that would support any position, opinion or view. Like the thousands of sites that talk about the "9/11 inside job" conspiracies or the "FDR knew the Japs were gonna bomb PH" conspiracies. I'm almost 59 years old and have been studying WW II for most of my life and the first time I've ever heard or seen anything about a Japanese atomic bomb test was today at 03:28 AM.... your first post on the subject. I ain't buyin' it.

TO

[kool kitty89]

Watch the video, its a History channel special all about the two separate projects in japan (one mainland, and one IJN project). Despite the fact that the History channel and like aren't 100% correct, it's pretty good. FYI, their program used the simple (though inefficient) thermal defusion method of enrichment. And at least one of their cyclotrons used in reasearch was an American built machine too iirc.

Most info on the topic was assumed to show that the program went nowhere, but in the last couple years one of the original engeneers on the project (living in the US) died and his wife released a group of doccuments which had survived all those years.

Just watch it, then decide. It is very interesting either way. Here: Japan's Atomic Bomb : Japan Probe


As said, it was a staged device and I doubt they had the material to build another, let alone a deployable one and there was almost no target accessable that would make a difference anyway. While the US had already dropped Fat-Man a few days before the test suposedly occured and another being constructed. Noth saying it could have changed anything, just surprising that they were able to get that far.

The test was said to have taken place right before Japan Surrendered.


And one more thing about the first-hand account, published and subbitted by the reporter (who later worked for Time Life magazine and was known for his integerety) in 1946, was that it decribed a nuclear explosion very accurately before such information had been declassified.

Again, you really should see the doccumentary, when you have an hour you're willing to spend watching it, or skim it, but that might not give the best impression.

Here's another link: YouTube - Japan's Atomic Bomb PART 1

YouTube - Japan's Atomic Bomb PART 2

YouTube - Japan's Atomic Bomb PART 3

YouTube - Japan's Atomic Bomb PART 4

YouTube - Japan's Atomic Bomb PART 5