Armour and it's conflict.

[plan_D]

Since a certain moderator, who shall remain nameless *cough* NS *cough* deleted the threads concerning armour. I've created this to encompass it all!

And I would like to start with this about flag signals from tanks;

After the battle of Chemin-des-Dames in Autumn of 1917;

On this occasion the French deduced the following:

(a)...
(b)...
(c)...
(d) the attempt to communicate with infantry by flags had failed, and the only effective means was by word of mouth.

...

From Commandant Perré, 'Les Chars á la bataille de la Malmaison' in Revue d'Infanterie)

If flag signals were a failure in World War I, it certainly proves they were not good enough for World War II. Don't you think, schwarzpanzer?

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Since a certain moderator, who shall remain nameless *cough* NS *cough* deleted the threads concerning armour.

:-"

Oh sorry, don't mind me. I'll try not to set my drink down on the Delete button.

[schwarzpanzer]

Well, the French couldn't manage to stop a few light tanks with masses of heavy tanks, so it proves nothing really.

Oh yeah BTW the commander had to load, aim and fire the gun as well as operate the radio (whilst commanding).

[plan_D]

Not in World War I they didn't. The French were alongside the British in tank development and deployment. It proves everything that flag signals are not reliable. They weren't reliable in World War I and they were not reliable in World War II.

The Tank Commander doesn't aim the cannon. Nor does he fire the cannon. That's the gunners job. In the T-34, with the cramped two-man turret, the Tank Commander had to load as well as command. In most of the machines during World War II, there was a seperate loader, gunner and commander as they're all full time jobs. Some tanks even had their own radio operators.

Loader, Gunner, Tank Commander, Radio Operator and Driver. A 5-man crew, which the most famous tanks had.

Flag signals were not reliable sources of communication. The lack of radio hampered the Soviet armour. Radio is important for any and all tank combat.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know squat about flag signals from tanks so this will all be new to me.

[plan_D]

Well, let me explain a little. When the tank was fully developed in 1915 the idea proposed by the British involved that they be equipped with wireless radio sets. The French (developing the tank around the same time) didn't think along the exact same lines and thought that flag communication would be possible.

Flag communication being the Commander popping out the top of the tank to "talk" to another tank about 200 metres away with flag signals.

The tank first saw battle on the 15th September, 1916 and the British had little trouble with the communications. They had a lot of trouble with the tanks, but even with that they proved their worth. Although some people didn't believe so.

Anyway, the French learnt after the battle of the Chemin-des-Dames in 1917 that flag signals were just useless because the mist of battle (both artificial and natural) prevented any effective communication. Plus the heat of battle made flag signals unreliable while leaving the Commander open to sniper fire.

Well, the Soviet Union still largely used flag signals in World War II. And the same problems existed then as they did in World War I. Due to this poor, slow and unreliable source of communication the Soviet crews were often unco-ordinated. Especially in the early years. That is why a good wireless set is vital for any tanks.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Actually I have seen a painting of Russian tanks with the commander poking out the top with flags in his hands.

[schwarzpanzer]

I've seen a Tiger commander flapping his arms around like a cheerleader.

Yes I know, what I meant was in all French WW2 tanks there wasn't even a gunner!

The Char-B's driver was also a gunner!

Radio is important for any and all tank combat.

Yes, but not vital, esp. if used the same way where the West would use radio silence.

i.e. go there, blast any German tank etc.

Also remember Soviets did not generally work individually.

A 5-man crew, which the most famous tanks had.

Except a Tankovy-Desant T34!

[plan_D]

Tank Commanders will sometimes have to communicate with infantry men. This would involve exposing yourself to enemy fire to communicate with them as they didn't all carry radio.

In fact, communication via radio is vital. Without any form of quick communication between tanks there is no tactical flexability. It's alright if the enemy doesn't react but what if the enemy does react. There's no communication between tanks and many would be caught off guard if only one tank saw the counter. It is a vital piece of equipment.

The Soviet tanks did work individually at the start of the war. You must remember that for tanks to work individually means they are not capable. The tank must be used on a unit basis, not singular basis. They need control, command and communication to act flexibly. A command stuck on flag signals cannot react quick enough to any situation.

You're under-estimating the need for communication between machines. It's quite shocking to say you have the benefit of hindsight from both wars. Read Achtung-Panzer! it'll give you an excellent study of armour usage in World War I and what Guderian gained from it. If you have read it before, read it again especially the section about wireless sets in tanks.

[schwarzpanzer]

You must remember that for tanks to work individually means they are not capable.

What about that T34 that drove 9 miles into German lines, or that KV, or even your Tiger in 'Command post 506' etc, the radio actually FUBAR'ed that one!

Yes radios are an advantage, more a luxury really though , I'd rather have a big gun/armour/engine etc.

I'll have to find that page in AP!

[plan_D]

And what are those tanks going to do on their own? Nothing. The tank cannot hold a position on it's own. The radio is not a luxury, it's a need for any successful tank assault to take place, on the defensive or offensive they need to be in contact for if there wasn't there's no flexability and no quick thinking. That means...no successful tank attack.

They discovered that in 1917 - why can't you in 2005?

[schwarzpanzer]

The tank cannot hold a position on it's own.

I've just given you 2 examples. Plus there was at least 1 KV-1 that did the same.

The Russian AFV's never really used radios, but they were still superior to all others (as a whole, rather than individually).

[plan_D]

No one single tank can achieve operational success. No tank forces act individually, hence the creation of Armoured Division and Tank Armies. The Soviet Union acted individually during the early part of the war and they lost terrifically.

Even if they T-34 did drive 9 mile into the German lines. The line closes behind it and it's lost. A tank cannot act on it's own for any kind of success. You do not understand the principal of tank warfare if you believe otherwise.

Tanks need radio to act in any flexible role. Without the radio there is little of operational success if the enemy reacts in any way. There's also little chance of exploitation if the oppurtunity arises.

I'm sorry but you don't understand how tanks should be working if you think they don't need radio. The reason the Wehrmacht was so successful in the early years was because their radio and tactical flexibility allowed to adopt and react to every situation. Not possible without communication.

[lesofprimus]

I'm sorry but you don't understand how tanks should be working if you think they don't need radio. The reason the Wehrmacht was so successful in the early years was because their radio and tactical flexibility allowed to adopt and react to every situation. Not possible without communication.

Agreed 100%..... This is actually a silly conversation... If communication WASNT important, why did they bother using flags in the first place......

[schwarzpanzer]

Even if they T-34 did drive 9 mile into the German lines. The line closes behind it and it's lost.

Well, an '88' Flak sneaked up on him, but he'd bought a one-way ticket.

Loose cannons can be very, very effective.

Also with the Germans having radio, news of the Matilda2 ("hundreds of tanks!") and T34 spread fast.

Good you'd think? wrong, the Germans were scared and lost morale.

Yes, radios are good, but not vital, not in WW2.

What if it's knocked out? What then?

Kinda like indicators on a car etc.

However, Katyushka/commander communications were important to the Soviets.