Battle of the Bulge.....

[Erich]

I'd would of said to the German high command - "Wachs auf !" you freaking tards, now that you are on the coast now what ? you are bloody surrounded and you're going to have to fight out of the Cauldron ............. AGAIN

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Erich

I'd would of said to the German high command - "Wachs auf !" you freaking tards, now that you are on the coast now what ? you are bloody surrounded and you're going to have to fight out of the Cauldron ............. AGAIN

[Messy1]

It sure was a waste of machine, and many men died for no apparent gain at all.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

The Battle of the Bulge was just a desperate act by a doomed regime and while it was momentarily successful, it was a failure.

Couldn't have said it better myself. My old man was there, described it the same way.

TO

[Watanbe]

I reckon they had to try it. I think it was essentially a good stratergy, Remember the Germans had almost no avaliable airpower at this stage. Sure, perhaps it would have been better to use the resources in the defence of Germany, but if they could capture some ground and put some pressure back on the allies, it gave them greater flexibility to do so, could draw the war out longer, as the Allies would need to prepare another offensive and could give the Germans better cards when it came to sueing for peace.

[Njaco]

Remember the Germans had almost no avaliable airpower at this stage.

Don't know what you mean by this. The German aircraft industry just came off its highest production months in years (Sept and Oct) and the same for oil reserves being brought back up. A lack of quality pilots or at least pilots of 1939-40 vintage but I don't think a lack of aircraft and the means to wage war with them.

[syscom3]

The LW was dwarfed by combined might of the RAF and AAF.

They might as well as didnt exist as they lacked quality pilots and the ability to shape the battlefield.

And that doesnt even take into account the overwhelming might of the Soviets.

[Njaco]

You'r correct and I'm not forgetting that but to say they had almost no available air power is misleading IMHO.

[syscom3]

The allies could fly 4000 sorties in a single mission over Luxembourg (with the 9th and their counterparts in the RAF able to fly multiple sorties), and the LW could put up a couple hundred at one time.

I'd say its as close to being non-existant as you can.

[Watanbe]

Originally Posted by Njaco

You'r correct and I'm not forgetting that but to say they had almost no available air power is misleading IMHO.

What I mean is that, there air power they did have was occupied in small time raids and in defence of Germany. They had almost no air power to launch or support an offensive. I think Syscom understands my point, it is also relative to the power of the Allies.

[Njaco]

I will concede the point. To conduct an ongoing offensive , the LW was entirely incapable, I agree.

[RabidAlien]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The allies could fly 4000 sorties in a single mission over Luxembourg (with the 9th and their counterparts in the RAF able to fly multiple sorties), and the LW could put up a couple hundred at one time.

I'd say its as close to being non-existant as you can.

Heh. Tell that to the crew of the B-17 who were classified as "negligible losses" on that mission.

Kinda hard to compare the effectiveness of the air forces of a nation who's industrial might is being pounded mercilessly every day, as opposed to the combined might of TWO nations, one of which is seperated from the conflict by a 1500 mile stretch of open ocean agressively patrolled by friendly navies. At the time of the BoB, I'd say that the Luftwaffe was no longer much of a concern, but they were still able to put up a determined, if ineffective in the long run, resistance. Remove all outside distractions, put their best pilot in their best plane (prop-driven) up against the Allies' best pilot in our best plane (prop-driven), and I'd say it would be a battle to behold!

But I'm just rambling this morning. At what point does one call in to work and tell them you're incapacitated by a raging migrane? I figger if I'm coherent enough to call in, I can go in.....owey....

[Thorlifter]

From one migrane sufferer to another, I feel for you R.A. I don't get them too often anymore (knocking on every piece of wood I can find).

[Lucky13]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

(knocking on every piece of wood I can find).

Will you PLLEEAASSEE stop knocking on my head TO.....not funny!

[syscom3]

Rabid, losses are inevitable and the Allies could absorb far more material and aircrew losses than the LW.

There is also no disputing the fact that (in Dec 1944) the LW could neither defend Germany itself, or go on meaningfull offensive operations. It doesnt matter the reasons for it, its just that "it was".