Best/Favourate Tank in the west

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Udet

Hello, do not have much time to remain logged on, but may I warn you guys abour this m kenny?

The fact of the matter being there is nothing to be warned about anymore as this individual has already shown the sort of sorrowful creature he is.

As you all have noticed, this individual requires professional help, and should be sent to some mental institution.

He is a sick keeper of the truth at its purest form. Keepers of the truth are fundamentalists, therefore, when you deal with this type of lifeform there is nobody out there to really discuss with.

I met this man in a forum a long time ago, and dealt with him accordingly. I am sure he will remember me (painfully).

Cheers

Udet!! Welcome back. Good to see and even better to hear from you. Yes as always we have newbies come to our forum trying to prove something. They are not interested in debating or opinions they just want to preach their our ideas. That is until they get banned b/c they ticked off the wrong person. I hope to see you back more often.

Don't work too hard. Damn happy to have you back!

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

You are posting numbers (finally) but you are posting numbers about nothing we are talking about currently. We are talking about Allied tank losses vs German Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 losses.

Oh I see. Well you know the ratio of Tigers/Panthers to PzIV's in Normandy so how can you seperate such a large number out from the other German tank involved?

As I said earlier the loss ratio would be just under 2:1 in the German favour. 5:1 ratios are fiction.

Udet was banned from the forum he mentioned for his extreme right wing views and threatening physical violence against those who opposed him.

[Gnomey]

And how many of those German tanks were destroyed by allied airpower. In Normandy anything that moved in the day was shot up (if it was German). A large percentage of those German losses would of been as a result of aircraft and not allied tanks. If it was only allied tanks the loss ratio would be more like 5:1 and less like 2:1...

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by m kenny

Oh I see. Well you know the ratio of Tigers/Panthers to PzIV's in Normandy so how can you seperate such a large number out from the other German tank involved?

As I said earlier the loss ratio would be just under 2:1 in the German favour. 5:1 ratios are fiction.

Udet was banned from the forum he mentioned for his extreme right wing views and threatening physical violence against those who opposed him.

Ok so you are acknowledging that Germans had close to a 2:1 ratio in their favor.

Being that we are talking at the moment just about Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 tanks vs Allies tanks. Do you agree that the 2:1 ratio would be higher if we could remove the lighter German tank losses?

I am sure the kill ratio would be close or approaching to the 5:1 ratio if we had the information available to accurately gage it. Do you agree? If not tell me what you think the kill ratio would be after you remove all the lighter German tanks killed. (just Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 tanks I am talking about here)

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Gnomey

And how many of those German tanks were destroyed by allied airpower. In Normandy anything that moved in the day was shot up (if it was German). A large percentage of those German losses would of been as a result of aircraft and not allied tanks. If it was only allied tanks the loss ratio would be more like 5:1 and less like 2:1...

No. Directly destroyed armour would be around 10%.

Try here for some concrete evidence.

Axis History Forum :: View topic - Planes vs Tanks

By the way this is the standard tactic used to reduce the total of German tank losses. Every possible method is used to remove german tanks from being described as a loss whilst every Allied tank hit is included as a kill.

The figures for losses run at less than 2:1 .




I

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Gnomey

And how many of those German tanks were destroyed by allied airpower. In Normandy anything that moved in the day was shot up (if it was German). A large percentage of those German losses would of been as a result of aircraft and not allied tanks. If it was only allied tanks the loss ratio would be more like 5:1 and less like 2:1...

110% agree I said that before but that was one of several questions he will not answer of mine.

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Ok so you are acknowledging that Germans had close to a 2:1 ratio in their favor.

Being that we are talking at the moment just about Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 tanks vs Allies tanks. Do you agree that the 2:1 ratio would be higher if we could remove the lighter German tank losses?

You are talking about half the German tanks. 'Light' does not enter it. The only other TANK (not SP Guns) would be the PzIV
800 Panthers/Tigers and 900 PzIV

Once you start upping the heavies score you take nearly all the kills away from the PzIV's, Anti-tank guns, mines, infantry ect. Nothing is left for anyone else.
With the overall loss rate ( 3000:1800 roughly) 5:1 is simply not possible.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by m kenny

You are talking about half the German tanks. 'Light' does not enter it. The only other TANK (not SP Guns) would be the PzIV
800 Panthers/Tigers and 900 PzIV

Once you start upping the heavies score you take nearly all the kills away from the PzIV's, Anti-tank guns, mines, infantry ect. Nothing is left for anyone else.
With the overall loss rate ( 3000:1800 roughly) 5:1 is simply not possible.

Not sure what you are trying to say in the first paragragh. I want to know is this.

-How many Tiger/Panthers/Tiger2 were lost to Allies tanks in those months.
-How many Allied tanks were lost to the Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 tanks in those months.

I know that is a hard question but I have to ask it. Not sure if you or anyone else can tell me that but what the heck. I am not trying to up any numbers, I am just trying to get to some understanding that we both can agree on here.

What I was trying to say is if the Germans had a 2:1 kill ratio in their favor (including all German tank losses). If you were to included only the Tiger/Panther/Tiger2 losses and compared that to what they actually killed I think the number would be higher than 2:1 ratio in favor of the Germans.

[m kenny]

500 German tanks kill 1000 Allied tanks

ratio 2:1

of the 500 give 200 of them 5:1

now we have the same overall ratio but 300 German tanks have no kills at all.

Once you up the score of a few tanks the majority of them become losers.

I did illustrate it in an earlier post

Let us take the J/J/A monthly totals (the German August totals are incomplete)

48 Tigers lost= 480 Allied tanks at 10:1.
All Tigers on the British front. Total UK losses to August = 1211.
Thus 40% of all British losses to 50 Tigers?
Silly isn't it?

Can I ask why people are saying there is a 5:1 kill ratio?
Is there some proof posted somewhere that I have missed?
Tell me what it is that makes you think the ratio is valid.
I can tell you there is absolutely no official figure anywhere that quotes it.
What on earth started this rumour in the first place

[lesofprimus]

I got an idea... Why dont u take ur "I wanna prove the world wrong" attitude somewhere else... U are caustic to everyone here and a wise-@ss who think their stats are the only right stats....

All these numbers ur putting out here are numbers that are not 100% accurate, just like everyone elses, so u need to take ur holier-than-tho attitude and shove it up ur @ss....

Where on earth did the rumour start up about there only being a 2:1 ratio??? I can find no official figures anywhere that quote it.... Oh wait a minute, if kenny says its so, it must be the gospel written from up high... I soooo very glad we have the worlds leading tank expert here with his 100% accurate statistics... Gimmie a freaken break....

Heres some Moderator advice... Give up the attitude pal, otherwise ur stay here will be short... Ur quest to quell the internet boogeyman and the bogus stats of the world shall not be fulfilled here...

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

I got an idea... Why dont u take ur "I wanna prove the world wrong" attitude somewhere else... U are caustic to everyone here and a wise-@ss who think their stats are the only right stats....

Well a 'wise ass' should be easy to discredit. Instead of general abuse show me where the figures are wrong.

All these numbers ur putting out here are numbers that are not 100% accurate, just like everyone elses, so u need to take ur holier-than-tho attitude and shove it up ur @ss....

And you need to understand that a big mouth does not give you the right to discredit 'statistics' that are indeed 'accurate'.
Perhaps you could tell me why the official US Army figures for destroyed tanks are 'not 100% accurate?
Why are the German monthly round ups of tanks lost in Normandy 'not accurate'
Have you found mistakes in the UK table of tanks lost in June/July and August of 1944?
They are not 'my numbers' so please show me where they are wrong.
I can see your problem though. The figures punch a huge hole in the mythical 5:1 Panther/Tiger ratio. To get back to this distortion you do need to ignore the real totals.

Where on earth did the rumour start up about there only being a 2:1 ratio??? I can find no official figures anywhere that quote it.... Oh wait a minute, if kenny says its so, it must be the gospel written from up high... I soooo very glad we have the worlds leading tank expert here with his 100% accurate statistics... Gimmie a freaken break....

Other than invective can you add anything here?
By the way you misquoted me. I said:

" Can I ask why people are saying there is a 5:1 kill ratio?"

Rateh than your distorted

"Where on earth did the rumour start up about there only being a 2:1 ratio???"

If you believe the conclusion to be wrong then show why. Losing your temper may be theraputic but it is rarely informative.

Heres some Moderator advice... Give up the attitude pal, otherwise ur stay here will be short... Ur quest to quell the internet boogeyman and the bogus stats of the world shall not be fulfilled here...

I should defer to those who recycle myth as reality?
This is forum policy?

The way I see it 'pal' is my information has upset a lot of people here.
They constantly tell me I am 'wrong'
The deride my information.
They insult me.
But they not one of them has posted a fact that casts the slightest doubt on anything I wrote.
I do not claim that 'I' am right.
It is not 'my' discovery.
It is in the monthly loss tables.
I have just given them more exposure.

Show the facts are wrong. Prove the figures are bogus.
Do that instead of hysterical chest thumping and you might get somewhere.

To make it simple.

Can anyone here give me examples where a Tiger Unit in Normandy achieved a 10:1 kill ratio?
Cite specific examples where individual Tigers took on and beat 10 Shermans,?
5 Shermans?

As this 5:1 was the norm there should be mountains of evidence to back it up.

We already know about Wittmann and Barkmann but I am after the ordinary everyday German tanker and his 5 kills.
Please do not bother posting Willy Feys account of August 7th. It is bogus.

No screaming or little girl tantrums now, just the facts.

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

I got an idea... Why dont u take ur "I wanna prove the world wrong" attitude somewhere else... U are caustic to everyone here and a wise-@ss who think their stats are the only right stats....

While I think this argument has got a little out of hand. I'm going to have to say something

While I can understand a moderator warning a member about insulting another members, warning a member because he's insulting a tank is a first

All these numbers ur putting out here are numbers that are not 100% accurate, just like everyone elses, so u need to take ur holier-than-tho attitude and shove it up ur @ss....

So far, the numbers he's put up for the total number of tanks lost by both sides in the Normandy battles are correct.
If you can find different figures please post them, so we all can share

Where on earth did the rumour start up about there only being a 2:1 ratio??? I can find no official figures anywhere that quote it.... Oh wait a minute, if kenny says its so, it must be the gospel written from up high... I soooo very glad we have the worlds leading tank expert here with his 100% accurate statistics... Gimmie a freaken break....

while m kenny might be a little caustic in his attitude, his knowledge of German tanks in Normandy is greater than anybody else on this forum.
He has given figures to back up his statements, we are still waiting for the other side to give theirs.
We may have a long wait

Heres some Moderator advice... Give up the attitude pal, otherwise ur stay here will be short...

I suppose you are going to warn the other members about their personal insults towards m kenny as well


[

[lesofprimus]

Nope, but I will give both of u @ssholes a warning... Redcoat, mind ur own business....

[Soren]

M_kenny you are infact the one who is making stuff up.

But Ok M_kenny, whats your source exactly ??

Also please prove that the Allied rule of thumb that it took 5 shermans for every Tiger is wrong - I'm very interested in this since a very regarded expert on these matters from bovington told me about this fact.

Now read a book by Thomas L. Jentz would you, cause you desperately need to !

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Nope, but I will give both of u @ssholes a warning

Actually could you do me a favour, and remove me from the members list... I no longer wish to be associated with this forum.

Bye folks