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11-11-2006, 07:44 PM
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#196 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,061
Country:  | Quote:
I think you narrow the boundry too much. I suggest you take it that I am on about the whole of the Normandy campaign. Villers just stands out as the most overhyped example concerning the Tiger tank. Because it was so well documented it is also the easiest to expose.
As for Russia, I know it fought there but I repeat an earlier statement of mine. I refuse to talk about a subject where I believe I do not have the information to argue authoratively. If I don't 'know' I dont 'say'.
I would add this though. German tank kill claims in Russia are astronomical.
The totals were so over the top that the German High Command automaticaly gave a 33%-50% reduction before they collated them for intelligence purposes.
I have yet to see any account or Unit report that admits this when they tabulate their 'kills'. The initial raw and unadjusted claim is ALWAYS used.
| If you only know about Normandy, how can you go on about the "myth" Tiger or "uber-Panzer" where all the information you have is from Normandy. Where the Tiger wasn't in large numbers.
I'm not an expert on Normandy on the ground, most of my books about Normandy are on the air power. But the mentions of the ground war in some detail doesn't say the Tiger did it all. I've read the Tiger was a very tough opponent and it along with StuGs, Pz.Kpfw IVs and various other AFVs caused considerable damage in Normandy. 2:1 AFV kills is a good number, and that doesn't include the amount of support vehicles the Germans destroyed. Quote: |
Being scared of a superior vehicle is a normal reaction. I presume PzIV crews were 'scared', Stug. crews were 'scared', Jagdpanther crews were 'scared'. Anybody with an ounce of sense would have been scared. However to go further and suggest that a Tiger only had to poke its nose round a corner for panic to grip the Allied tankers is a step too far. Tigers were taken in combat wherever they were seen and a good number were despatched for their trouble.
| I'm glad you finally state the Tiger is a superior vehicle. Allied tankers were trained soldiers, and most of them would not panic. This doesn't mean that fear touched all their hearts when a Tiger did appear. Quote: |
or C) The Russian records do not allow us to check the claims and thus by default they are accepted?
| Well, any report or interview I've seen on a Russian battle that involved Tigers always mentions the crews panicking at the sight of Tigers. And there's always the overclaiming on their side. Quote: |
The average Allied tanker never saw a Tiger in Western Europe. They were rare beasts indeed and hardly ever encountered.
| They were rare, but tactics (or at least the nominal tactic) in most situations after the hedgerows was to open up and flank it. Taking one head-on was a sure fine way to get your turret blown off. Quote: |
I advise caution. I repeat that ALL tank kill claims are considerably in excess of reality. Check first before you commit yourself to this Units claim.
| I'm well aware that everyone over claimed. The Allies often mistook a Pz.Kpfw IV for a Tiger, and some claimed a Pz.Kpfw IV destroyed as a Tiger. But the 752nd provide pictures of some of their kills for your troubles. (Must have had an eager photographer in the unit.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. | 
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11-11-2006, 07:54 PM
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#197 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,028
| Lets stop all this off topic talk, and get back on track:
Which was the best Tank in the west ?
Looking at the stats its either the Panther or the Tiger - I'm definitely leaning towards the Panther.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
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11-11-2006, 07:56 PM
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#198 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,061
Country: | The Panther. Ausf G was the best tank of the war, in my opinion. And the 6th Coldstream Guards probably agree.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club. | |
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11-11-2006, 08:42 PM
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#199 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:  | Panther in my opinion.
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11-11-2006, 09:28 PM
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#200 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: In WW2 Land, CODUO, SWON
Posts: 710
Country:  | On a more serious note, I'm stuck between the Churchill, and the Cromwell. Although, the last Valentine models were pretty good to, despite the lower than acceptable amor. | |
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11-12-2006, 07:50 AM
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#201 | | World Traveler
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK
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Originally Posted by plan_D  The Panther. Ausf G was the best tank of the war, in my opinion. And the 6th Coldstream Guards probably agree. | I would agree with that, the Panther is the best tank of the war for me too.
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11-12-2006, 02:01 PM
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#202 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:  | I go with the Panther as the best as well. I like the Tiger better but I think the Panther was a better overall vehical. It combined the good protection of the Tiger with sloped armour.
Ofcourse to counter this opinion m kenny will show pics of destroyed Panther Tanks. 
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-12-2006, 02:54 PM
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#203 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 795
Country: | Pity the Centurion didn't make it - the thing is STILL in service here and there!
They tested a couple of Panthers at Bovvie against Centurion Is, and they found that the Cent was better. Just.
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11-12-2006, 03:24 PM
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#204 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | So they let them shoot at each other.... test each others armour against each other?
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-12-2006, 06:13 PM
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#205 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,061
Country: | I would rank the Centurion superior to all German armour of the war. It was very adaptable to modern technologies too.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club. | |
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11-12-2006, 06:22 PM
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#206 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | I dont eneogh about it. Armour was never really what I cared to study. I know the basics and nothing more. Aircraft on the other hand....
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-13-2006, 01:45 PM
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#207 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,028
| The Centurion with its 105mm gun was certainly superior to any WWII tank, no doubt about it - even beat the crap of the T-72.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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11-13-2006, 01:52 PM
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#208 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
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Originally Posted by plan_D I would rank the Centurion superior to all German armour of the war. It was very adaptable to modern technologies too. |
PlanD,
I was just wondering, b/c I am not sure, how many Certurion tanks were made and reached active units (combat) before the end of WW2?
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11-13-2006, 03:11 PM
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#209 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by Hunter368 PlanD,
I was just wondering, b/c I am not sure, how many Certurion tanks were made and reached active units (combat) before the end of WW2? | 6 Centurions were sent to Europe on 14th May 1945. They were tested by Gaurd's crewmen attached to 7th Armoured Division. They returned to the UK in July 1945. The tanks were found to be inferior to the Cromwells (and even the Chaffee!) in cross country performance.
David Fletcher, in his book on 'The Universal Tank' points out that it was easy to get carried away with praise for the Centurion but in most respects it was no more than the equal of the Panther tank-and it was from 1943. | |
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11-13-2006, 03:38 PM
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#210 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
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Originally Posted by m kenny 6 Centurions were sent to Europe on 14th May 1945. They were tested by Gaurd's crewmen attached to 7th Armoured Division. They returned to the UK in July 1945. The tanks were found to be inferior to the Cromwells (and even the Chaffee!) in cross country performance.
David Fletcher, in his book on 'The Universal Tank' points out that it was easy to get carried away with praise for the Centurion but in most respects it was no more than the equal of the Panther tank-and it was from 1943. | Thanks
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