Best/Favourate Tank in the west

[the lancaster kicks ass]

TOODLE-SQUAT

that has to be my word of the day........

[cheddar cheese]

And my word of the day?

Poo.

[P38 Pilot]

Im going to stick with the good old American Sherman M4 because she was a fast tank! (Perfect for the dessert)

[the lancaster kicks ass]

ah yes, the tommy cooker......

[Vassili Zaitzev]

I have to say the M4 sherman, They were numerous, mobile and fast. Their 75mm cannon made them a good adversary to the Panzer IV. they were vunerable to flak 88s and Tigers, but which american or british tank wasn't

[schwarzpanzer]

Originally Posted by Yeomanz

i left out the... M3 Stuart

Grrr!


The Crusader fulfilled a good role as a FlakPanzer and gun tractor etc.


The PzIII G E/50 was competitive when compared with enemy tanks in NA from August '40 'till the end.


The StuGIII could deal with a Mathilda from it's introduction, as could the PzIV when using HEAC/CPHE rounds. When the G and F2 models respectively were released, they stayed formidable.

- I'm gonna plump for the StuGIII.


PlanD:

Discounting the Tiger though, the IV F/2 was certainly the best. Although the M4 Sherman was a very close match-up for it.

It had less chance than a T34/76.

The M4 Sherman, however, had 75mm armour maximum armour. Therefore, the IV F/2 will only be bothering the Shermans with good hits at those ranges.

That's a maximum, the hull front for e.g. was a favourite aiming point for German gunners.

The PzIV's fume port and other ports like the driver's etc were also unable to stand upto even a Boys AT rifle though!

A few hits would destroy but we'll delete them at this moment, since a lot of tanks can have very unlucky moments.

A wise move, thank you D. However this applies when matching RoF's...

Normal combat range being 400 - 600 metres, the Sherman was in a good solid position against the IV F/2.

The ranges here can be more like 6+ miles!!

Also, the KwK40 L/43 was more accurate than the M3 75mm. The German cannons were so good because of their high velocity and accuracy.

You are correct, a high-velocity, well mounted cannon makes the job much easier.


Soren:

The 'Zeiss' optics used on the PzIV were 'Far' superior to any U.S. or British tanks optics. Thats a fact

It can count for nothing. Sand storms and the weird effects of heat can render any optical equipment useless, it's like aiming underwater at times!

the PzIV F2 would have no problem in making first round hits at 1000-1500m.

Yes, on a good day. The Sherm ain't gonna be able to do that, the M10 might though...

optics with build in range-scales !

Wow! I bet the Allies/Soviets wish they had that!

The only time range-related equipment that amazes me is the laser range finder on the very late Panthers.

Never said you did, but you said the M3 was accurate at 1000m, wich it wasnt

Course it was.

WWII projectiles and ballistics by Lorrin Rexford and Robert Livingstone

Thanks again Soren! I take it you've already got the (Nation's) Artillery series of books?

Originally Posted by toffigd

Why no one votes for the underestimated M 13/40? It couldn't be as bad as most people think, as it was widely used by Germans and British (Australian) as well.

Because it was available, that's why. The gun is arguably themost important part of a tank and on the Carro this was good. The armour was worse than useless though and the gun couldn't make up for it.

Originally Posted by P38 Pilot

Im going to stick with the good old American Sherman M4 because she was a fast tank! (Perfect for the dessert)

It had pathetic floatation unlike the fantastic T34.

The rubber pads also had a habit of melting!

Good tank, but not in the desert, though it was probably the best tank around when introduced (but called a Swallow).

Originally Posted by Vassili Zaitzev

they were vunerable to flak 88s and Tigers, but which american or british tank wasn't

The Mathilda and Chuchill had a degree of survivability here, but were just too damn sloow!


The best points of the PzIV and Sherman had was mechanical reliability, something only the Stuart, Valentine & Pz/StuG III could match?

Belly armour is also a huge consideration. I know of a Sherman that survived a mine, dunno if it was AT or not.

[Gnomey]

Your complaining he missed off the M3, if you look he also missed off the Panther...

[schwarzpanzer]

You're right there knomey, how could he??

- I'll get my sharpest knife... - only kidding!

I suppose the Panthers were rare is why they're excluded?

I think the AusfG was used in North Africa IIRC?

IIRC it was the early G only though, I think the Late G came out after Germany left North Africa?

- Then again I thought the Early G came out after Germany had left North Africa! ('44)


Even so, that was probably the best, you're right Gnomey, can't believe I forgot it!

[MacArther]

I'd take the M3. Sure, the gun layout was a limitation, but it also helped it, because while the tank was manuevering to use the 75mm gun, the 37mm gun would hit any potential weak points on an enemy tank, or just make any light vehicles nearby into scrap.

[Soren]

Fine Schwarz, dig up some old dirt

It can count for nothing. Sand storms and the weird effects of heat can render any optical equipment useless, it's like aiming underwater at times!

Schwarz do you seriously think that I was talking in case of a sandstorm ?!

Yes, on a good day.

Any day the weather is clear...

The Sherm ain't gonna be able to do that, the M10 might though...

Neither the Sherman or the M10 can... And btw, the M10 entered service in late 42, a bit late compared to what the Germans possesed by then.

Wow! I bet the Allies/Soviets wish they had that!

I bet they did. All they had were rough estimates, "worth sh*t" as one US tank commander once said.

The only time range-related equipment that amazes me is the laser range finder on the very late Panthers.

Laser range finder ? Schwarz, laser equipment was first developed in the 1960's

Course it was.

It sure wasn't ! And just by looking at the actual gun, someone just a little knowledgeable about ballistics will tell you the same !

[MacArther]

I think he means the Infared spotlight that some panzer units and panzer support units mounted.

[elmilitaro]

Originally Posted by MacArther

I think he means the Infared spotlight that some panzer units and panzer support units mounted.

Did the allies have any of these?

[MacArther]

Nope. I'll try and find the picture of the SDKFZ (or whatever the initials were for the armored personel carriers) that has an Infared Spotlight on it. These were used to illuminate the target, which the Panthers and other late model tanks could see by means of some device. Whether or not this type of action was used before wars end is debatable.

[terriles]

I like the mathilda mk2 and the italian´s tank m13/40



THE PANZER II

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well the title of the thread is Best/Favorite tank in the West and since the Afrika campain was not considered the Western Campain I will have to say the Panther and Tiger were the best in the West.