Best/Favourate Tank in the west

[Civettone]

Christian Ankerstjerne has already been mentioned...
If he were here, he would tell you that there never was a Pz IVF2...



Kris

[Soren]

Err, why would he say that ?

[Jackson]

well

one thing about the IV

It was in production on 1 Sept 1939 and May 8, 1945


I cannot think of anything else that can lay that claim

It makes it one of my favorites

[Jackson]

AFV I mean

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by Soren

Err, why would he say that ?

Well, the answer can be found on his website: panzerworld.net but I have copied it for your convenience.
The Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F2 and Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.G were not seperate vehicles, but merely different designations for the same vehicle. The Ausf.F2 designation appeared in two manuals before the designation was changed to Ausf.G, and thus the designation made it into post-war literature as being a seperate vehicle.
So IVF2 seems to have been a temporary and unofficial designation.

Other fictitious names:
Hetzer
Brummbär
Königstiger (or Kingstiger)
Panzer IV/70 Zwischenlösung
Saukopfblende
These were all allied names/words which were never officially used by the Germans. Whenever you even mention these words, you'll get a reaction by Christian. You can set your clock on that!

Kris

[Soren]

I see, I knew about the "KingTiger" designation but I didn't know about the Pz.IV Ausf. F-2 and Brummbär - thanks for the info Civettone !

So most of the Pz.IV Ausf.F-2's with the ball like muzzle brake were infact just early Ausf.G's.

[plan_D]

That's interesting about the Pz.Kpfw IV F/2. If it was temporary it doesn't make it fictious though and surely if it was in manuals it makes it official. There were changes in the vehicles though, different muzzle brake (as Soren said), a system to transfer coolant to another Pz.Kpfw and elimination of vision ports.

So, would it be better to call it an early Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf G. That does generate problems though because the late Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf G is almost impossible to distinguish from the early Ausf H. Once the 7.5cm KwK40 L/43 came along the Pz.Kpfw IVs really molded from one mark to the next.

As I understand it the reason for the name Pz.Kpfw IV F/2 is simply because the new long-barrelled 7.5cm KwK40 was ordered onto Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf F chassis already in production.

Basically, the others are probably fictious but the fact that the designation was mentioned in German war manuals as F/2 makes it real. And they weren't built initially as the Ausf G; making them upgraded Ausf Fs in my mind. Calling it the F/2 has been drilled into my head for too long; and there's not enough reason to change it.

[Soren]

I agree, and eventhough it might technically be incorrect I'll still refer to it as the Ausf.F-2, simply because then most people will know exactly which I'm talking about, avoiding any misunderstandings.

[Civettone]

Of course there's no need to stop using the term. Everybody else uses it, so that would just be creating difficulties.

But I have to point out that -although it appeared in two manuals - it was never an official designation. I assume that manuals are drafted from the same company that builds the weapon. But in order to make it official, it has to be mentioned by the German authority. That never seems to have been the case.
If you would have gone back to 1942/1943 and demanded to see a Pz IVF2, they would have told you there was none.

Next time I see Christian, I have to ask him if there ever was a Pz IVF1, or just a Pz IVF...

Kris

[Derfman]

Tough choice

I voted Pzkpfw IV

I'm not a fan of the Tigers as "good Tanks", due to the mobility issue. On the Tiger I, mobility was not so bad to make it a "bad" tank, but enough to take away top slot for "good".

Tiger II was a "very poor" tank except when its enemies came to it (which happened a lot as Germany was losing). The Tiger II was GREAT for hurting an enemy military that was attacking you, but near worthless for making offensive moves of your own. Even the Sherman was FAR better for offensive action. (painful for the Sherman when they met, I know, but the Sherman COULD do offensive mobility, and the Tiger II could not).

If the Sherman had a better gun in Africa, I'd be tempted put it on par with the Panzer IV, but it didn't.

For the record, my votes "best Tank" in the war are split between the T34 and the Panther, depending on if you count production ease. (M26 gets Honorable mention, but was to late to really count)

['Lil'tyger]

i think that the tiger2 was the best tank in ww2

[Derfman]

Originally Posted by 'Lil'tyger

i think that the tiger2 was the best tank in ww2

The Tiger II was WORTHLESS for the one thing that wins war: "Offensive action" Even the much flawed Sherman was better.

During offensive action, heavily armored and heavily gunned Tiger IIs could waste fuel trying to get in range of the enemy, but thats all they could do.

Of course, once the enemy BEAT the other German forces that the Tigers FAILED to support, then the Tigers could kill a bunch before they died in DEFENSIVE fights, but they sure as heck would not kill anything where and when it counted for "offensive" action, as they were to slow and poorly mobile to keep up.

Tiger II would be great for trench warfare.

Panther was a great Tank. But not the Tiger II.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by toffigd

Why no one votes for the underestimated M 13/40? It couldn't be as bad as most people think, as it was widely used by Germans and British (Australian) as well.

The self-propelled coffin?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have allways gone with the Panther and the Tiger.

Ofcourse the Shermans were built in numbers that could win the war however.

[Soren]

Derfman,

The Tiger II was far from worthless on the offensive, it could negotiate worse terrain than both the Sherman & T-34 and boasted a similar top speed. The only real problem plagueing the Tiger II was the lack of spare parts & fuel, the lack of which meant that the bulk were abandoned and blown up by their own crew. The weight was ofcourse also a problem, not many small bridges would support 68 - 70 tons of pure killing machine !