Best World war two warships?

[delcyros]

Carrier have replaced battleships as the prime weapon of naval warfare mostly because they do project firpower over a larger area. While a BB may project it´s firepower to no more than 20nm distance, a carrier does this to no less than 200nm distance.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by ColesAircraft

Actually, an aircraft carrier is a big barge with a flat top, and aircraft are individual machines with limited individual power. Yamato was a single operating machine, excluding launches and recon aircraft.

- Ron

The aircraft can project more firepower with its aircraft. It is a more deadlier weapon. That is why after WW2 most Navies stopped building and using Battleships and building Aircraft Carriers.

The largest and most powerful ships ever built by man to this date are the Nimitz Class Carriers (again excluding Nuclear Subs and so forth but this is about largest and therefore it is the Carrier.)

Carrier Airpower proved to be the end of the Battleship.

[ToughOmbre]

The Yamato never proved herself in combat. Adler is right, the aircraft carrier rules.

And by the way, one on one, I would take any Iowa class BB over the Yamato.

TO

[ccheese]

Has anyone thought what we would have done without all those
landing craft ? They seemed pretty important at every amphibious landing
the US undertook !!

Charles

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by ccheese

Has anyone thought what we would have done without all those
landing craft ? They seemed pretty important at every amphibious landing
the US undertook !!

Charles

No doubt Charles. But I wouldn't classify them as warships.

My old man came ashore on Utah Beach on an LCVP.

TO

[delcyros]

Both, Yamato and Musashi prooved theirselfe in combat, at least four times I am aware off.
A single ww2 CV may hurt a modern BB but has little to no chance to sink any of the modern BB´s (barring a fluke hit like Bismarck). What Yamato & Musashi doomed was a concentration of US aircrafts which was unbelievable previously, including well over 300 bombers and deficiancies of their designed protective scheme (the thick and almost impenetrable belt had faulty rivetting, the inclined lower belt was prone to give way due to beeing installed non vertically and the whole protected box covered to little of the waterline).
Land based bombers could make full effect from either guided APC freefall bombs (Do-217K with Fitz-X) or superheavy bombs (Lancaster with Tallboys or Grand Slam), both of those may easily sink a modern BB.
But those modern ww2 BB´s were reasonably well protected against bombs dropped from carrier strike planes and eventually also from aircraft torpedoes, prior to introduction of Torpex as warhead.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by delcyros

Both, Yamato and Musashi prooved theirselfe in combat, at least four times I am aware off.

"four times"

Yamato and Musashi fired there 18.1 inch guns only once in anger at enemy ships (Battle of Leyte Gulf) with no confirmed hits. Yamato withdrew, Musashi was sunk.

Yamato was caught by American carrier aircraft and sunk during "Operation Ten-Go", the suicide mission to Okinawa in 1945.

Just when and where did Yamato and Musashi "prove themselves in combat"?

TO

[delcyros]

Beside of non combat operations

No.1 (25th of dec. 1943):

Yamato beeing torpedoed off Truk by USS Skate in dec. 1943.
Altough in this action Yamato did not actively attacked an enemy, she showed elementary damage controll actions, justifying the term "combat prooven". The joint between upper and lower belt failed between frame 151 and 173 and thus a large amount of floodwater entered the ship. Yamatos crew was able to contain the flooding and stabilize the ship.

No.2 (24th of oct. 44):

Musashi and Yamato firing their main artillery off Sibuyan Sea against enemy planes (with delay fuzed special AA shells). Musashi received a possible max. of 17 bomb and 18 torpedo hits (altough 9 torpedohits are more credible estimates according to DC reports of it´s survivors) and eventually sunk later. Yamato received a total of 3 bomb hits and continued to proceed for Leyte.

No. 3 (25th of oct. 44):

Yamato continues to proceed into the Leyte Gulf, resulting in the battle of Samar, Yamato fired a total of 106 18.1" rounds, contributing to the sinking of 2 DD´s and the CVE Gambier Bay.

No. 4 (7th of april 45):

So called "Kamikaze"-sortie of Yamato against US operations of Okinawa. Yamato beeing subject of 386 carrier strike sorties, in whiches cause she received up to 13 torpedohits and 8 heavy bomb hits. Yamato fired her main battery against enemy planes, altough with no effect and finally succombed to the damage received.


That are four events in open sea, where she either attacked or was subject of enemy attacks. Few ww2 modern BB had such a "tight" operational record.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by delcyros

Beside of non combat operations

No.1 (25th of dec. 1943):

Yamato beeing torpedoed off Truk by USS Skate in dec. 1943.
Altough in this action Yamato did not actively attacked an enemy, she showed elementary damage controll actions, justifying the term "combat prooven". The joint between upper and lower belt failed between frame 151 and 173 and thus a large amount of floodwater entered the ship. Yamatos crew was able to contain the flooding and stabilize the ship.

No.2 (24th of oct. 44):

Musashi and Yamato firing their main artillery off Sibuyan Sea against enemy planes (with delay fuzed special AA shells). Musashi received a possible max. of 17 bomb and 18 torpedo hits (altough 9 torpedohits are more credible estimates according to DC reports of it´s survivors) and eventually sunk later. Yamato received a total of 3 bomb hits and continued to proceed for Leyte.

No. 3 (25th of oct. 44):

Yamato continues to proceed into the Leyte Gulf, resulting in the battle of Samar, Yamato fired a total of 106 18.1" rounds, contributing to the sinking of 2 DD´s and the CVE Gambier Bay.

No. 4 (7th of april 45):

So called "Kamikaze"-sortie of Yamato against US operations of Okinawa. Yamato beeing subject of 386 carrier strike sorties, in whiches cause she received up to 13 torpedohits and 8 heavy bomb hits. Yamato fired her main battery against enemy planes, altough with no effect and finally succombed to the damage received.


That are four events in open sea, where she either attacked or was subject of enemy attacks. Few ww2 modern BB had such a "tight" operational record.

Quite an impressive record

Doesn't come close to the combat records of almost any American BB, not to mention the CVs. Those two Japanese battleships were not much more than floating headquarters.

TO

[mkloby]

Good info Del - but I would hesitate to equate "bullet sponge" with "combat proven."

[delcyros]

While there is certainly room for discussion whether the definition of combat prooven does or not does include agressive action, the factor "staying power" is almost defining a BB. Once You receive damage by enemy action, You are in combat- at least that´s how I do see it.

Yamato´s combat record in this respect is more intensive than the combat record of most contemporary modern BB´s (not included coastal bombardments and participation on operations without naval engagement):

BB Tirpitz (0 actions)
BB Beatty (0 actions)
BB Anson (0 actions)
BB Wisconsin (0 actions)
BB King George V (1 naval action)
BB Duke of Yorck (1 naval action)
BB New Yersey (1 naval action)
BB Missouri (1 action)
BB North Carolina (1 action)
BB Indiana (1 action)
BB Alabama (1 action)
BB Dunkerque (1 naval action)
BB Strassbourg (1 naval action)
BB Richelieu (1 naval action)
BB Jean Beart (1 action)
BB Roma (1 action)
BB Hood (2 naval actions)
BB Washington (2 naval actions)
BB Iowa (2 actions)

Therefore, Yamato´s combat record is ok for a BB, altough the ship wasn´t utilized to it´s full potential.
Of course, a CV gave more returns than a BB in terms of utilization.

[ToughOmbre]

Del, your "facts" are slanted to say the least. IMO you can't disregard ANY combat operation, as you conveniently do.

The question was, pure and simple, Best World War II Warships, no qualifiers.

I'll just address the American BBs. Bold data is my answer to your original post.

BB Wisconsin (0 actions) Wisconsin earned five battle stars for her World War II service and one for Korea.

BB New Yersey (1 naval action) New Jersey earned the Navy Unit Commendation for Vietnam service. She has received nine battle stars for World War II; four for the Korean conflict; and two for Vietnam.

BB Missouri (1 action) Missouri received three battle stars for World War II service and five for Korean service.

BB North Carolina (1 action) North Carolina received 15 battle stars for World War II service, more than any other U.S. battleship during the war.

BB Indiana (1 action) Indiana received nine battle stars for World War II service.

BB Alabama (1 action) Alabama received nine battle stars for her World War II service.

BB Washington (2 naval actions) Washington (BB-56) earned 13 battle stars during World War II in operations that had carried her from the Arctic Circle to the western Pacific.

BB Iowa (2 actions) Iowa earned nine battle stars for World War II service and two for Korean service.

Yamato and Musashi aren't in the same universe. One on one, any Iowa would blow the Yamato class (or any other BB for that matter) out of the water. Ask any naval expert.

Respectfully,

TO

[delcyros]

Without wanting to take away anything from the well deserved reputation of US BB´s, Battle Star´s were given for very various events, including the participation in a campaign without naval or aerial gunfire action (this was done repeatedly) and Battle stars were also credited for participation of coastal bombardements, which don´t tell us anything about combat qualities. I excluded operations, which did not resulted in inflicting damage or receiving damage. As US BB´s, Yamato and Musashi served as cover for CV operations but unlike those they haven´t been used for coastal bombardement.

Regarding Your comment on Iowa, blasting Yamato out of the water, I made years ago a detailed analyses of both ships in gunnery action vice versa guns vs armour using Nathan Okuns Facehard and M79APCLC as well as metal properties derived from his misc. armour sourcework. I wouldn´t qualify myselfe as a naval expert, altough I do know who are the experts and have enjoied discussion with them. Be sure, ToughOmbre, there is no such comment made by any of the authorities.

[comiso90]

What is the definition of "Naval Action"?
What degree of participation merits a "Battle Star" ?

The Yamoto and Musashi are magnificent but just cause they had 18 inch guns and a wide beam does not make them the best.
.

[delcyros]

The Yamato class of BB is the ultimate classic gunship. While her guns are second to none in terms of range and penetration (US 16"/45 firing superheavy 2700 lbs APC do have comparable long range (deck) penetration power but are inferior in penetration of vertical surfaces over the whole range of distances) and way superior in terms of destructive potential (blast effects, fragmentation and kinetic energy) compared to any gun ever put on the seas, also it´s protection was better than any other warship.
It´s turret face plates beeing twice as thick as Bismarck´s main belt and -while not as effective in reltive stopping power- are still the only armour plates installed in any warship, which cannot be defeated by any gun the way they are installed (leaning back 45 degrees).
The CT, turret & barbette armour were the thickest ever installed into a warship and unlikely to be penetrated by any gun except at close distances. The embedded vitals enjoied the protection of the thickest armour deck to be put ever on a warship AND the thickest main belt to be ever installed into a warship. The details of inclined arrangement offered even increased stopping power and protection from below (mine protection bottom, the only BB to have one!). I am well aware of deficiancies in the design, which are thoroughly understood since years and produce weak spots in the armour scheme at certain conditions, but such weak spots are not uncommon in other warships, esspeccially in the Iowa-class.
One on one, Iowa should use it´s superior speed and either disengage or seek conditions to close the distance to below 16Kyards respectively. Below 16.000 yards, both ships are equally vulnarable to each other main guns, beyond this distance, Yamato has an appreciable and distinctive advantage.