Carriers!!

[R Leonard]

No, we can't get back to carriers until I can get my 2¢ on cruisers . . .

Telling heavy cruisers from light cruisers is not all that difficult, in fact, the difference was spelled out in the 1930 London Naval Treaty:

INTERNATIONAL TREATY FOR THE LIMITATION AND REDUCTION OF NAVAL ARMAMENT, 1930
. . .

Article 15

For the purpose of this Part III the definition of the cruiser and destroyer categories shall be as follows:
Cruisers
Surface vessels of war, other than capital ships or aircraft carriers, the standard displacement of which exceeds 1,850 tons (1,880 metric tons), or with a gun above 5.1 inch (130 mm) calibre.

The cruiser category is divided into two sub-categories, as follows:
(a) Cruisers carrying a gun above 6.1 inch (155 mm) calibre;
(b) Cruisers carrying a gun not above 6.1 inch (155 mm) calibre.
Destroyers
Surface vessels of war the standard displacement of which does not exceed 1,850 tons (1,880 metric tons), and with a gun not above 5.1 inch (130 mm) calibre.

. . .

Thus heavy cruisers had guns greater than 6.1 and light cruisers had guns greater 5.1 and both were greater than 1850 tons displacement.

Where there is some confusion is why US heavy cruisers were designated CA and light cruisers were CL. Well, we can dispense with the CL simply by saying it stands for Cruiser, Light, which, of course it does. This nomenclature stemmed from when the USN first adopted letter designation hull numbering system in 1920. In establishing the system, scouting cruisers re-named light cruisers. The folklore was that BuShips was determined that no USN ship would be designated CS, as in “cruiser, scouting”, so scouting became light. With the treaty in 1930, it just so happened that the CLs fit neatly into the light cruiser category. CA as a hull designation for heavy cruisers goes back to the first USN cruisers which were known as Armored Cruisers. This in 1920, at the same time they created the CL hull designation for light cruisers, heavy cruisers became CA, for Cruiser, Armored. Truth be known, actually there were Cruisers and Light Cruisers, “Heavy” was something that just crept into the nomenclature over time . . . obviously, if you had a "Light" cruiser, then the bigger one must be "Heavy."

You may now discuss a much better topic: Carriers

Regards,

Rich

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thanks for the info there.

[Gnomey]

Good stuff R Leonard!

[Glider]

Damn, thats where I have been going wrong all these years. All those scores of Fletcher destroyers were really cruisers all the time.
Japs didn't stand a chance going against cruisers in destroyers.

Seriously its interesting stuff and shows how the world moved on from 1930

[MP-Willow]

thanks for the help, I was just trying to keep us close to the topic.

So group, if we have this cruisers stuff sorted out how much firepower is needed to protect our Cariers?

Say for Tran atlantic and Pasific crossings in Spring of 1943 or so.
Was there a major differance in the group make up between the two oceans? If so why?

[syscom3]

Carrier's are not intended to fight ship-ship in surface engagements, so cruisers with lots of AA guns would be the most usefull.

The difference between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans is the vast ranges in the Pacific dictate that ships with a large radius of action would be the most logical choice.

[Glider]

Anyone would think that the USA first thought of the AA Cruiser

[Glider]

Originally Posted by MP-Willow

So group, if we have this cruisers stuff sorted out how much firepower is needed to protect our Cariers?

The awnser to this one is easy. Just as much as you could carry.

Escorting BB's were also a help if for no other reason that they tended to attract incoming bombers and were generally big enough to take the hits without suffering too much. The fact that they also carried a lot of AA gear and just as importantly made for a stable gun platform didn't do any harm.

As for the Atlantic vs Pacific the threats couldn't have been more different. In the Atlantic any escort should be biased against submarines, in the Pacific against aircraft for the obvious reason that the Germans didn't have any carriers or aircraft to operate from them, and the Japenese Submarine fleet achieved very little.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Carrier's are not intended to fight ship-ship in surface engagements, so cruisers with lots of AA guns would be the most usefull.

The difference between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans is the vast ranges in the Pacific dictate that ships with a large radius of action would be the most logical choice.

Agreed because just about all Carrier engagments are fought with the enemey never seeing each others carriers. They fight each other with there aircraft. The best thing would be Anti Aircraft ships to help defend the Flat Tops and ASW ships.

[MP-Willow]

thanks all, the Japs really missed out if they could have used the subs even a little like the Germans or us, that would have made for some big problums.

What do youi all think?

[syscom3]

The IJN submarine doctrine was to use the submarine fleets to support the main fleet. It never occured to them to attack allied cargo, transports and oilers.

The IJN HQ was also a dismal failure in the operations and control of the sub fleet. Micro managing them and sending them on predictable courses and having them waste time hauling supplies. After the sinking of the USS Wasp in 1942, there was hardly one victory worth mentioning. A whole fleet of submarines with nothing to show for it.

The whole IJN submarine history can be summed up in one word..."failure".

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wasn't the Indianapolis sunk by a IJN Sub?

[syscom3]

Yes. Unfortunatly for the IJN, it was the only notable success in two years of sub warfare

[MP-Willow]

But what it could have been. Think the IJN subs could have stayed around Pearl found the Carriers and just maybe sunk one, or hassle the fleet and repairs might have been longer

I know that is all I strech but I agree that when compaired to the other major Sea powers the IJN's use of subs was poorly exicuted.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They did send subs around Pearl. The small midget subs, but that was just dumb anyhow and did not accomplish anything.